The Wolverine Stack: What the Science Actually Says about BPC-157 and TB-500(And What It Doesn't)

[0:00] Kathy: So, I had a patient last week whose sister won’t touch a COVID vaccine because she doesn’t trust it. But she’s injecting peptides from a website that also sells horse dewormer and reconstituting them in her bathroom with bacteriostatic water that she bought on Amazon. I don’t even know what that means, but I’m guessing she heard about that from a podcast.

Jason: Of course she did. It’s called the Wolverine stack, because apparently we’re all just one gray market injection away

[0:30] from regenerating like Marvel superheroes. Well, today we’re breaking down what’s actually in these peptide protocols, what the research does and doesn’t say, and why your gym buddy’s supplement stack is now requiring syringes and a mini fridge. This is the PTCH. What happens when a chiropractor and a physical therapist get together to make a health and wellness podcast?

Kathy: But chiropractors and physical therapists don’t like each other.

Jason: Oh, think again. I’m Dr. Kathy Lynch, physical therapist who likes to help people move and get stronger.

[1:00] I’m Dr. Jason Young. An evidence-based chiropractor who uses humor just as much as adjustments to help people get better. Welcome to the PTCH Podcast.

Kathy: Remember, there’s no “I” in PTCH. Oh, man, we are back. I’m Dr. Jason Young.

Jason: I’m Dr. Kathy Lynch, and I’m still just wowed by this. Welcome to the PTCH Podcast. I know that that’s a wild cold open, because like, what is this world that we live in? Right? If only there was a doctor who could come and save us all.

[1:31] Do we have one?

Jason: Yeah, hmm.

Kathy:

Jason: Oh, goodness. Well,

Kathy: Okay, well,

Jason: yeah, here we are again for another episode. Happy Happy PTCH Podcast Wednesday, everybody. Oh, first, can I do a little mea culpa?

Kathy: Please. What did you screw up?

Jason: Yeah, I think I misspoke. I misspoke. Yeah.

Kathy: And then you misspoke.

Jason: Case in point. Now, in our

[2:01] what was it, cardio versus weights episode, I think that I didn’t state it correctly when I indicated that the older you get, the less exercise you need. Which —

Kathy: Oh, yeah. Which — I would have caught that if I was listening.

Jason: Well, I think that you were thinking about the fact that cardio makes people’s brains bigger. Yeah, that was the —

Kathy:

Jason: part I was — Yeah, I know I was tempted to just be like, “No, April fools.” But no, I think — because I went back and I listened and I was like, “Oh, Jason, that’s not right.” So, yeah, so when you get

[2:32] older, you don’t actually need less exercise, but what you need is better rest and recovery. That’s what I was trying to get across, but I just said, “Nah, work out less, bro. You got this.”

Kathy:

Jason: You only got so much time left. Don’t waste your time.

Kathy: Yeah, well, and there’s actually evidence to show that the older you get, working out six days a week actually has some benefits over not. But you have to pay more attention to recovery. And so, yeah.

[3:02] Your point. My apologies. Yes.

Kathy: Mhm. You know, you’re always getting the truth here at the PTCH. Always getting the truth here at the PTCH. And this is heavily regulated. Podcasts are in general.

Jason: 100%.

Kathy: Yes, which is why we’re having the conversation that we’re having. So, I think I kind of ambushed you with this topic. I was like, “Kathy, let’s talk about the Wolverine stack.”

Jason: And I literally texted you back, “I have never heard of this.” So, we’ve done some research. We’ve

[3:33] looked at the evidence that’s out there, and this is something that we need to talk about.

Jason: Yes. So, I don’t know if you’ve had patients who’ve come in and asked about peptides.

Kathy: They haven’t asked me about peptides.

Jason: They haven’t. Well, they will. Trust me, it’s coming. It’s a thing. It’s good I’m learning about this. Well, and it goes back to a couple things. First of all, there is this 2025 research paper that talked about a peptide that was shown to have

[4:03] some pretty unbelievable effects in terms of helping little mice and rats to recover from injuries. And then this kind of got picked up and talked about on some other lesser podcasts out there. Like I think that’s when —

Kathy: My guy’s name is Joe.

Jason: Yeah, Joe, and the other guy’s name is Huberman. Yeah, so Huberman went on the Joe Rogan podcast, and yeah, that Joe Rogan — he doesn’t

[4:33] — he’s just a dude, literally. The guy’s a comedian.

Kathy: Yes. He does some MMA. He’s an announcer. But for some reason the trust level of this guy is through the roof.

Jason: It’s because they put a microphone in front of him and a camera in his face and like, “This guy has credibility.”

Kathy: Yeah, he’s like —

Jason: Let me see those credentials.

Kathy: He’s like a bald Howard Stern.

Jason: Yeah.

Kathy: Who is this guy? Yeah, I mean, I don’t have a problem with Joe Rogan. His show is entertainment. He’ll tell you that

[5:04] his show is entertainment.

Kathy: I don’t really think the guy is dishonest, either. I don’t think — if he believes something that’s BS, he’ll tell you it’s BS and that he believes it, right? But man, people ascribe so much credibility to him. And this — well, this isn’t the only thing, but this is one of those things where it has potential to cause some harm.

Jason: Sounds dangerous to me.

[5:34] Yeah, so we need to talk about it.

Kathy: Let’s dive in. So, let’s start — biohacking. Have you heard of biohacking? What’s your take on biohacking?

Jason: So, my take — okay. I am a spiritual person.

Kathy: Okay. Good. As am I.

Jason: Yes. Part of my worldview is, as humans,

[6:04] we are meant to live and meant to die.

Kathy: Yes.

Jason: We were not meant to live forever.

Kathy: Right.

Jason: And so — at least not on our own terms.

Kathy:

Jason: I mean, is biohacking taking statins so that you don’t build plaque? Possibly.

Kathy: Maybe.

Jason: But the biohacking — when you — I assume the biohacking you’re talking about are those people that want to extend their life and live longer than 100 years.

Kathy: Right. So, they’re doing these like

[6:34] off-the-books gene therapies and like using CRISPR and stuff like that. Or, you know, I would like to learn how to grow wings and things like that. Yeah, it’s it’s weird. There’s people out there that are just trying to change the human organism into something that it isn’t. And man, the genie is out of the bottle on that one.

Kathy: Gone. Yeah.

Jason: Off the rails.

Kathy: Definitely. But people think that there’s no consequences to them. Like, “Hey, if I if I sprout a third ear

[7:04] and I don’t want it, they can just cut it off, right?” Simple. Simple. I’m sure insurance covers that, right?

Jason: Yeah, totally. Totally. And you know, in this podcast — I think Joe Rogan is one who’s credited with naming these particular sets of peptides that we’re going to be talking about today, giving them the nickname the Wolverine stack. And so, some people listening to this might not be that cool and understand who/what Wolverine is. I don’t know what a Wolverine is. Yeah, so

[7:34]

Kathy: Wolverine is Hugh Jackman.

Jason: Oh, yeah. He’s the greatest showman, right?

Kathy: So, yeah, Wolverine’s a comic book character who — he has these long claws that grow out of his — grow out of his hands, and he’s got like all of his bones are metal and covered with — covered with this metal, so he can slice through everything. And one of his major powers is the ability to regenerate. So, he’s he’s been around

[8:05] for hundreds of years, and you know, fought in all these wars and everything like that. Can’t kill him. Can’t kill him. Unkillable. He is the Wolverine. Hardest to kill.

Jason: Hardest to kill, yes. If you go to Helix — if you go to Helix, Kathy’s gym — their motto is that they’re going to make you harder to kill. And they’ll give you a T-shirt, too, that says that.

Kathy: Absolutely.

Jason: Yes. I would never wear that shirt. Not because I don’t love the gym, but I don’t want — I don’t want to invite anybody to test my claim. Oh,

[8:37] hard to kill? Oh, watch this. Yeah.

Kathy: Challenge accepted. Yeah, no, thank you.

But Wolverine actually is harder to kill. It’s like a really cool character. Been in the X-Men movies. There’s been Wolverine movies and everything like that. So, Rogan hears about this peptide and how it gives your body these regenerative properties, and he’s like, “That sounds like the Wolverine stack.” I’m going to — let me interview you about this outside. Yes,

[9:09] let’s do it. All right, break it down.

Jason: Let’s — let’s talk — what what is a peptide? Pep- whoa, jeez, okay. All right. I used to teach cell biology at —

Kathy: Oh, yes. You didn’t know this.

Jason: — know this. Yeah, I taught — I taught cell biology at Linn-Benton Community College. Yeah, I went there looking for a job teaching nutrition. And so, they they looked at my my transcripts, my my curriculum vitae, and everything, and they said, “Hey, yeah,

[9:39] we listed this nutrition job, but we actually want you to teach cell biology.” Okay, then.

Kathy: And I was like, “What?”

Jason: They’re like, “Yeah.” And I was like, “Are you sure? Like I don’t — like I’m not a cell biology guy. I don’t — I don’t think I did good in cell biology.” They said, “You have gotten an A in every single biology class you ever took.” I was like, “Let me SEE THAT TRANSCRIPT.” I MEAN, YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR, I guess. Yeah, I know. So, yeah. So, they made me a cell biology teacher in the cell —

[10:09] I can teach at the community college level. Yeah. And I just had to remind myself, Jason, you don’t need to know everything about cell biology. You just need to know more than an 18-year-old who doesn’t know what he wants to do with his life.

Kathy: There you go.

Jason: And and his girlfriend who followed him to community college. Yes. That’s it. That’s all — that’s all I needed. So.

Kathy: Just a good rule of thumb for life. It is, yeah. So, but let’s go there. What’s a peptide? Okay.

[10:40] So, a peptide is a collection of amino acids. What’s an amino acid, you ask? So, an amino acid — an amino acid is a collection of atoms which makes up a molecule. And then these molecules make up a peptide, which is the building block of proteins. And so, when you’re looking to get some protein, basically you’re getting the amino acids are in there, you’re getting peptides are in there. And so, there’s

[11:10] just so many different types of peptides out there that are in our body, that make up our body, that exist in nature. And so, they they all do different things. Like, some of them will be structural, right? Like, the way that our body uses protein — we use those those peptides, those amino acids to actually build muscle.

Kathy: Okay. Some of them might cause cells to signal. Like, they’re little signaling

[11:40] peptides or proteins. They’ll attach to the surface of a cell and then the cell knows, “Hey, when there’s something attached to this receptor, we got to go do XYZ.” And so, they’re really versatile molecules and they can do some cool stuff. Okay. So, that’s a really good start.

Jason: Yeah, it happens in nature. So, it can’t be bad, right?

Kathy: No.

Nature never gets it wrong. Okay. So, this peptide —

Jason: Mhm.

Kathy: Let’s start — what do people think — what

[12:11] what does this peptide actually do? Cuz it does do something.

Jason: That’s a good question. So, there are two peptides that we’re actually talking about. One of them is BPC-157. BPC stands for body protection compound.

Kathy: Oh, okay.

Jason: Yes. Very creative. Yes. And they called it that because where this was kind of discovered — all of us have this in us, first of all. Naturally occurring. If

[12:42] you’re listening to this podcast, if you’re within the sound of my voice and you still have a stomach, then you have some BPC-157 in you. In the gut.

Kathy: In your — in the gut, yes. And what it does is — your stomach’s a very acidic environment. Really like caustic. And so, it has to repair itself from time to time. So, BPC-157 helps with that repair process. Okay?

Jason: Okay. So, the other one is TB-500, which

[13:16] stands for thymosin beta-4 500. Okay. Okay. So, they both do a couple different things. Oh, I should tell you what TB — yes — 500 does.

Kathy: What does it do?

Jason: The TB — it signals other cells. So, it attracts other cells that participate in healing and it does something called angiogenesis, where it signals your body to lay down new blood vessels.

[13:46] Now, where these two things come in handy is like, remember the BPC 157 is helping the stomach to repair and promotes healing. And then the TB 500, since it causes the angiogenesis, it can bring blood flow to an area. So, the theory is if I have a tendon injury, okay, and I sprinkle some BPC 157 and some TB 500 on

[14:18] there, then it’s going to bring blood flow to that tendon. It’s going to encourage some healing and help me to repair really, really quickly. Okay. Which, you know, that access to blood flow is one of the rate-limiting factors to recovery. That’s right. Right. So, like shoulder impingement — we’re discovering that it’s not just a mechanical problem, it is a blood flow problem. So, getting that shoulder

[14:48] moving, you know, it’s going to get some blood flow to it. But what if you could just get some extra hoses of blood running to that tissue, right? So, that’s the theory. And then there’s others that they get used out there, like there’s one called melanotan one. Oh, tell me more about this one. And melanotan two is just like what it sounds like, right? Kathy, have you ever wanted to be black like me? Every morning. Yeah, every morning.

[15:19] I want to be more like Jason. With melanotan one and two, now you too can be blackish. Yeah, before I started using melanotan one and two, I was even lighter than Raul. So, yeah. Yeah, I don’t use this peptide. But it’s out there and people are using it. And what it does is it causes increased activity in melanocytes, which

[15:49] make melanin and makes your skin darker. So, yes, fake and bake no more. But there’s issues, because there’s reasons that our bodies have the amount of these peptides that we have in the places that we have them. Yes. And so, using them other ways could cause problems. Yeah, it seems like to me you don’t want these peptides outside your stomach, but yeah, maybe. I don’t know. Well, the problem is we don’t know. We don’t know. We don’t know.

[16:19] Yeah, so when we did our cold open, usually those are just like purely fiction. That one’s actually not. I had a patient who was telling me, and I told her that I would shout her out on this episode. Yeah. So, she’s like, “I’m going to tell my sister to listen.” And so, she did not tell me your name. Yes. Let’s pretend your name is Jenny. Hey, Jenny. Hi, Jenny. Yeah, let’s talk.

[16:50] Let’s talk about the little green stuff. So, your sister told me that you were all about the peptides. And my first question was, “How do you feel about the COVID vaccine?” Mhm. Because I had a suspicion. Yes. I had a suspicion that Jenny was skeptical of the COVID vaccine, but was all in on the peptides. Absolutely. Yes. And only one of those has been tested for any sort of safety.

[17:20] And it’s not the peptides. So. But the people who were testing COVID were criminals. Yeah, war criminals. War criminals. Yeah, basically. Should be put to death. Right, certainly. Yeah. Yeah. So, it’s kind of interesting because this thinking kind of fits all into the same category. You know, because Rogan — again, going back to Rogan — very, very skeptical of

[17:52] the COVID vaccine, right? And what a lot of people don’t realize, and I’m getting off topic here, but this is going somewhere. Okay. What people don’t realize is that the COVID vaccine, while that specific vaccine had not been tested, that mechanism for developing vaccines had been tested for decades. Yeah. Yeah. So, these RNA vaccines — they’ve been tested for decades, right? Wasn’t new. Yes. Now, let me bring that up because I need to contrast it to what we’re doing with the peptides here. Now, these

[18:23] naturally occur, so people are like, “It’s natural. Yay.” Well, you know what else is natural? Bubonic plague. It occurred in nature. Not great for you, right? No. Yeah. No, no. So, Spanish flu, syphilis — you know, all those things occur in nature. And so, nature doesn’t necessarily equal good. Sometimes nature equals bad. So, yeah, Jenny.

[18:54] You have to be careful with these things because they are less tested than some of the things that you are very worried about. And in particular, the big concern with melanotan — or sorry, the — what did I call it? Yeah. Melanotan. Yeah, melanotan one and two is that they can potentially trigger cancer. Yeah, another thing — it’s not just your skin that gets

[19:25] affected by melanocytes, it’s also moles, right? And so one of the concerns is uncontrolled mole growth. Yeah. And I’m not talking about the little animals. No. Not in your backyard. Yeah, so we had to be — we have to be really careful with these. There’s another one, the GHK-Cu, which is a copper peptide. And that one they claim boosts collagen and skin healing, so close up a wound, just splish splash some of these on there.

[19:56] So, we don’t have a lot of evidence about these things. Is this the government keeping these things from us again? Ah, you got it. Yeah, it’s RFK. No, I’m just kidding. It’s the opposite of RFK, actually. Why aren’t doctors doing this? Yeah, so people wonder about this — like, are the peptides good? Right. And big pharma does not want to compete with the peptides, and so they’re trying to shut it down. Okay. Less likely. So, here’s the challenge. Because

[20:28] because BPC 157 and TB 500 and these other ones — because they’re known, you can’t patent them, right? Like, I can’t go out and patent vitamin C because it’s a known — there’s nothing proprietary about it. It exists. Okay. Like, I can’t go and suddenly decide I am going to copyright Moby Dick because that’s in the public domain. I can’t do it. Shoot. And so

[20:59] there’s not much in it for them from that standpoint — like, they can’t go out and start marketing BPC and get it through all the FDA trials and everything like that. And so, that’s one of the reasons they haven’t picked up on it. The only kind of ways that they could maybe put a marketable spin on it would be if they found some way to alter or enhance it, or if they had a novel delivery system, right? Like, we have a new way of injecting it, or something like that. Then you can patent

[21:29] that. Jason: Three-pronged needle. Yes, yes. Three-pronged pink and blue needle. Kathy: Jason: Yeah. So, that comes back to, you know, the way this is delivered is subcutaneously. So, people are injecting these things. Yeah, like Huberman, if you don’t know about Huberman, he’s a neuroscientist, Stanford educated. Yeah, I think so. He’s got one of the most popular health and wellness podcasts out there. I think it’s like us, Huberman,

[21:59] some other guys. Kathy: He’s a close second to them. Very close, yes. There’s no chiropractors or physical therapists on that show. Jason: No. So, it kind of hurts his credibility a bit. Yeah. But he talked about having a lumbar disc herniation, and he was injecting this two or three times a week, and like he gave his whole protocol for it and everything like that. And so, people sometimes interpret that as, “Oh, it’s been researched. The science has been done.” And fortunately, he was okay. You know,

[22:29] his back got better and everything, but even he says, and even Joe Rogan says, that there’s no research behind it. Kathy: Well, and I shouldn’t say no, because we’re not just thinking that it does these things randomly. Right. Jason: Right, there is some research. You know what kind of research has been done? Tell me. Rat research, yeah. Kathy: Jason: The last I checked, we are not descendants of rats. No, no. Slightly genetically different. Slightly genetically different, but genetically similar enough that rats and mice are

[22:59] useful in medical research. Kathy: Yeah. Sure. We want to do research on mice and rats because we can block certain genes, and that helps us to know for sure. We can also cause certain injuries or diseases in the mice and rats, and then we just very gently and ethically euthanize them, right? It’s just the nicest exit that you could possibly have after the research.

[23:30] Jason: So, there’s been some studies that have been done. Like I said, Croatia in the ’90s, they were up in the lab working with the rats and mice, and they were getting some good results. There has not been human trials on it since then. And so, the big question is, why not? Kathy: Yeah, why? Why not? Jason: Yeah. And it should be a big question because if the results they were getting were so amazing, you would think that some

[24:00] pharmaceutical company would have scooped this information up and tried to make the Wolverine drug. Kathy: Yeah. But for some reason that didn’t happen, which I don’t know exactly why, but it should make one wonder, right? Somebody would have wanted to make money off of that. Jason: Absolutely. I want to make money off of it, right? Kathy: And people are making money off of it. Well, we’ll get to that. Jason: But yeah, so it never got picked up that way. And even if you have good results

[24:30] in rats and mice, it doesn’t automatically mean that you’re going to have good results in humans. There are drugs that get tested all the time, and they see these mechanisms in rats and mice, and 90% of those do not make it or survive human trials. And so, it’s very common that you can have good results in animal trials, but those don’t translate over to humans. Kathy: Mhm. And I think it’s not just the efficacy outcomes that we should be

[25:00] looking at, we should also be really concerned with the safety. Jason: Mhm. Right? So, in the mice and rats, Kathy: those two. Yeah. it looks like it was pretty safe. But the big question is, why not humans? Kathy: Why not? And Jason: we got there yet. Kathy: And I think the even bigger question is, if you’re somebody who’s skeptical of a vaccine, um why would you want to be part of the

[25:30] human trial of these peptides? Because if you’re using them and there’s been no human research done, you’re putting them in your body, guess what? You’re now in the study. Jason: You are the rat. Kathy: Yes, you are the rat. We’re selective about the tools that we recommend, and Brain.fm has really earned its spot. It’s functional music built with neuroscience in mind, designed to support focus, relaxation, creativity, or sleep, depending upon what you need in that moment. Think of it like adjusting the lighting in your brain. Do

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[26:32] link’s in the show notes, and signing up through our link for the free trial supports your favorite podcast. Brain.fm, music for the brain. And the problem is that when you have an actual scientific study, there are ethics boards that you have to get study protocols cleared with. That way they make sure that they’re not doing unethical things that will harm people. And that’s

[27:02] been an issue in the past. We’ve done episodes talking about this. And so, there’s no oversight that way. Nobody is looking out for you as a test subject. Also, in these studies, whenever you put together a study protocol, there has to be plans for how are we going to keep people safe? How are we going to know when to pull the plug? Are we monitoring these outcomes and everything? If you just order this stuff and you’re putting it in your body, nobody’s looking out for you. Nobody’s monitoring. And because

[27:32] it’s not being done commonly by medical providers and things like that, how are you going to be sure that you can get the help that you need if something goes wrong and you need to go to the ER, and you’re treating yourself with some random peptide, and I know it says BPC 157 on the bottle, and I’ll talk in a second about why I say random peptide, but you’re treating yourself with some random peptide, and you go to the emergency room, and you expect them to save you. How are they supposed to do that? Right? It’s so risky.

[28:03] Kathy: It’s so risky. Yeah, what was I going to say about that? Jason: Kathy: Like you said, if they’re injecting it and we don’t know — well, I know you’re going to get to this — like what we don’t really know what’s in that bottle that they’re injecting, right? Jason: Kathy, it says on the label, it’s BPC 157, right? Why wouldn’t we know what’s in there? Yeah, um yeah. And the way you’ve described these

[28:33] Peptides, again, like I said, these are peptides I wouldn’t necessarily want outside my stomach, because these peptides are in the stomach for a reason, like you said, because it’s acidic. Yeah, we’re spiritual people. We’re of the opinion that God put them in the stomach.

Jason: Yes, for a reason.

Kathy:

Jason: Yeah, I don’t know if I want to inject that into my tendons, ligaments. Well, not until Jenny’s done it. I want to

[29:03] find — — out if Jenny’s okay first. And the other thing, you know, about these trials — you know, like vaccine trials that we’ve tested in these peer-reviewed randomized controlled trials — is there’s a control.

Kathy: Yes. There’s the people who don’t inject,

Jason: Yes,

Kathy: and do the same activities and see if they get better at the same time as the people injecting. So, there’s no control.

Jason: No. In general, in the larger aspect and

[29:34] in the nitty-gritty aspect of this research that’s happening. Kathy, you’re describing science, okay? Why would you ever want to do science on something that you’re going to be using for the health of your body? Does that make good sense? I don’t know.

Kathy:

Jason: Yeah, I don’t think I want it flowing around in my blood.

Kathy: Yeah. So, yeah, so there’s — and the other thing, too, you mentioned the subcutaneous thing. So, that’s a protocol that was used by Huberman. There’s other

[30:06] protocols out there for these. Like, there’s a pill form, which probably doesn’t work because peptides, when you take them orally, they get to your stomach and they’re going to get broken down, right? And you already have some BPC-157 in your stomach. Like, why isn’t that just getting flushed into the — so, it doesn’t really make much sense for this application, but there are BPC-157 pills out there.

Jason: Yeah, because the average person doesn’t

[30:37] know enough about science, biology, healthcare to put together that that doesn’t make sense. How could I take a BPC-157 pill — it’s going to break down in my stomach and become BPC-157, which I already have in there — and then somehow magically this stuff is going to go the rest of the body? I’m not a cell biologist, you are, so I want — —

Kathy: What happens if you

Jason: I’M A CELL BIOLOGIST FIRST, chiropractor

[31:07] second. Yeah.

Kathy: What happens if you have too much BPC-157 in your gut?

Jason: That’s a really good question. And the answer to that is: who knows? Literally nobody knows. We don’t know. There is no scientific answer to that. You could likely — yeah, if you overdose on this. If you can. Yeah, there’s nasal sprays, which people try, and maybe that works, who knows? Because we don’t have any science on it, so we don’t know.

[31:39] Now, here is — okay, so our exalted health leader, RFK Jr. So, if you wanted to go to a compounding pharmacy and get some BPC-157 or your TB-500 or your GHK-Cu, you can’t do it because they are on the no-compound list, meaning that pharmacies cannot make this, okay? Can you imagine why they’re not allowed

[32:09] to make it, Kathy?

Kathy: My guess is it’s not regulated.

Jason: Oh, yeah, that’s a great reason. I hadn’t thought of that, but —

Kathy: Nobody’s overseeing this.

Jason: That’s a really great reason. Yeah, so they’re on that list, but our exalted health leader, MAHA himself, Father MAHA, thinks that it might be illegal to prevent compounding pharmacies from making peptides. And so, he’s got plans

[32:39] to just take it off the list. This sounds a lot — I don’t know why this popped in my brain, but — like, why can’t we let 8-year-olds drive? Let them drive.

Kathy: You know, those people are unregulated. Physically, they probably can.

Jason: Yes. Right? Yeah, and why is it illegal for them to drive at 8? We should lift that restriction. This is exactly what it sounds like. I mean, it’s not too important that they’re able to see over the wheel.

Kathy: No. Yeah. Or what about this, okay? What about this? Why couldn’t an 8-year-old

[33:09] drive a Tesla — yes — in self-driving mode, you know? Why not just let them hop in there, drive around? Because hey, the car’s doing most of the work, right?

Jason: To fight for the rights for these 8-year-olds. Yeah. Now, we got to stop this because Griffin — — Griffin is 15, okay,

Kathy: and he’s like, “Dad, like why can’t I just go ahead and get my license? I know how to drive. I clearly know how to drive, right?” So, I already know that he’s going to walk up to me and put this

[33:40] in my face and be like, “Look at this, old man.” I’ll be like, “All right, you bring me some peptides.” But I mean, that’s the point — like, lifting these restrictions is just literally saying, “Let’s lift all the rules. Disregard public health

Kathy: Yeah.

Jason: and health for anybody.”

Kathy: Yes, we have abandoned common sense when it comes to this. And it’s a very high-risk thing. Now, chances are it’s completely safe and

[34:10] very effective, right? But we could do the research. We could, right? So, this actually brings us to the supplement industry in general. Now, a lot of people don’t understand that your supplements are regulated in one way and one way only. Excuse me. That is label claims. So, the way that they’re regulated is on the

[34:41] label, they cannot claim to cure anything.

Jason: Okay. So, you cannot — let’s — well, okay, vitamin C is the cure for scurvy, right? You get scurvy, that is a vitamin D deficiency — or C deficiency. See, I’m going to have to do another mea culpa in the next episode. That is a vitamin C deficiency. The cure for scurvy is vitamin C. You cannot put that on the label of a vitamin C supplement because you can’t make cure

[35:11] claims on the supplement. You also — and this is a little less regulated — you should have in it what it says it has in it on the label. You should. And then there are supplements — some people are going to feel kind of differently about this, but I got to say it. There are some supplements where the strategy is to say, “This is a whole food supplement,” right? Or, “This is a whole food thing.” And part of the

[35:41] strategy there is the claims — the rules are even looser on food than they are on supplements, right? So, you don’t have to put all the ingredients on food. You don’t have to put quantities on food. I don’t have to tell you how much biotin there is, or this B vitamin or that, if it’s food. And so, some of these companies, that’s the way they get around it — “Oh, this is — we’re using food as a supplement.” And it’s marketing.

Kathy: Understood.

[36:12] Jason: It’s marketing, not always science or necessarily even better. So that is going to ruffle some people’s feathers because there are some supplement companies where that’s their strategy. And I’m not 100% against that because I’ve got a nutrition background and I believe that food is good medicine. It’s good for nutrition. That is the main purpose of food. That and birthday parties, right? Kathy:

[36:42] Jason: And barbecue. That is the point. Kathy: And barbecue. Jason: I told you I’m a spiritual person, too, right? Barbecue. Okay? So that’s important to understand because I have now discussed all of the regulations regarding supplements. And that’s it, period. Kathy: There’s no requirement for third-party testing. There is just a requirement that you not poison people, I guess. You can’t poison people. You’re going to get in trouble if you poison people.

[37:12] But yeah, it’s very loosely regulated. And so the big question we have to ask is: do we want something like this coming through the supplement industry or through the FDA? I mean, I’m not a huge fan of the FDA. I’m not a huge fan of Big Pharma. But I recognize that the pharmaceutical industry has a significant apparatus for safety Kathy: Yes. Jason: and proving efficacy. It costs billions to get drugs to market. And the thing that I’m not a fan of is

[37:44] the fact that there’s just a very small group of people that can actually do that, because you and I can’t start a pharmaceutical company. There’s no way that we could come up with that money. Kathy: Oh, yeah. I was going to say PTs — they don’t let PTs and chiropractors do it. Jason: It’s just the money part. Kathy: Oh. Jason: Okay, that other detail. That other detail, right? But so it’s not like a level playing field because pharmaceutical companies are the only ones who can use this apparatus. But the thing is, they have to pump so much

[38:15] money into it because there are so many rules about what it takes, and it helps to ensure public safety. Supplements, on the other hand — and granted, I recommend supplements to people, but I’m very specific about the ones that I do and where they come from. But the way that supplements are regulated, or not regulated, can create some significant risk. The main protection that you have when it comes to a supplement is that if it harms you and you can go back and prove that it

[38:45] harms you, you can sue the pants off of that company. That’s the main protection that you have. Proving it. Kathy: Yeah. So they call this the gray market, right? Because it’s not the black market where something is prohibited, but it’s a gray market because you don’t know what’s actually in that stuff. You don’t. Jason: Yeah, I could sell you BPC-157 and it could be water, Kathy: Yeah, Jason: right? And it’s not going to hurt you. You’re going to inject it. It’s not going to hurt you. But you’ll never know. You’ll never

[39:15] know for sure. And there’s only so much you could do if you could prove that that’s what I’m doing. So one of the big concerns with this is it’s not really difficult to make peptides in a lab, but there are a lot of not very safe ways to do it. Heavy metal exposure is an issue. So you could be dealing with lead exposure, depending upon where you get it from, especially if you’re getting it from another country. And I guarantee you these companies are

[39:46] spending far more on marketing than they’re spending on research and development, safety, testing, those kinds of things. Kathy: Yeah, because it is a big money business. So if you want to use this, it’s like $150 a month, and you’re doing like a 3-4 month protocol, and people are just ordering off of the website. You just got to ship it out. There’s no quality control or anything like that. Buyer beware. Jason: Yeah. And

[40:16] you know, we’ve seen this with all kinds of drugs. Like, let’s try street drugs — how safe is that? Kathy: Depends on which ones. Jason: No, you know, everything’s got a little fentanyl in it right now. Kathy: Yes. Jason: Better high, more addictive, and it’s easier to sell more drugs. Kathy: Mhm. But yeah, so this is potentially disastrous. Yeah. And I’m talking about on the small scale, which is one person could use them and have a disaster. And

[40:47] also on the big scale. Jason: Mhm. Where, you know, if a manufacturer becomes really popular, they send it out to a lot of people, it’s not good product, a lot of people get hurt. Kathy: Yeah. I was listening to another podcast — just one other one — where they were talking about supplements and how pervasive — and I’m on social media, so I don’t want to pretend like I’m not — but how pervasive social media influencers are in compounding

[41:18] this misinformation Jason: Mhm. Kathy: problem. And people see these influencers doing these things and think, oh, it must be safe, they’re doing it. Jason: Yeah. And their claims that this is making them feel better and they’re getting better quicker can sound believable. Kathy: Mhm. It’s scary. Jason: And on top of that, especially with social media, there is no financial disclosure that is required.

[41:48] Kathy: Oh, that’s true, right. Jason: Like when you watch commercials and you see a drug Kathy: Mhm. Jason: commercial, they all have that one hilarious part at the end. What is that? It’s the disclaimer. And this may cause death. Kathy: Death, diarrhea, Jason: Kathy: explosive diarrhea, purple diarrhea. You know, there’s a whole ridiculous list of things that it can cause. Jason: Bleeding from your ear. Kathy: Yes. And so I —

[42:18] Jason: Supplements by comparison seem really safe because you don’t have to do that whole big long list of disclosures. Kathy: — in the disclosure. Jason: Yeah. Why not? Well, because there just aren’t the rules. So the other thing too is when you’re listening to an influencer talk about a supplement or something like that, especially if at the end they’re like, click the link in the bio — you don’t know if they are being paid to say what they’re saying. Kathy: Right. You also don’t know if they’re being honest with you about taking it themselves. Jason: Right. You don’t know that that person

[42:48] knows anything. Kathy: Mhm. Jason: Right? They might not have a single certification, any license, any oversight, anything like that. And so it is buyer beware, super duper risky. Kathy: Yes. Jason: What I do for patients is I actually do some investigation on the brands that I recommend. I want evidence that they do third-party testing. Third-party testing means if you have Kathy’s supplement company and you’re

[43:19] making supplements, I want to see that you are sending those supplements out to another lab who is blindly testing them. They don’t know that it’s Kathy’s supplement company, but they do blind tests of supplements to make sure that what’s in those pills are in those pills and it doesn’t contain other things. And so when — and there are supplement companies that they go out and they do this — and those are the brands that I recommend. Years ago, back when just right before

[43:50] I was going to get my nutrition master’s, there was a study that came out from New York City. They pulled supplements off of the shelf at like Walmart, at GNC, which you’d expect to have some good ones. I think Target was another one. And they looked at these supplements and they just tested them to see if what was in them was really in them. And so there was one of them that was labeled gluten-free — contained mostly wheat filler. Not even the supplement, right? There

[44:21] were some that contained too much of what was in there. There were some that didn’t contain any of what was in there. And these were at GNC, which you’re supposed to be able to trust.

Kathy: Yes. Right?

Jason: Yes. And so when I read this article — and I used to have a copy of it in the clinic and I’d highlight it and I’d give it to patients, because I’d be like, be careful. But I still want to recommend things, because there’s supplements out there that are helpful. I feel like I have a liability

[44:51] if I recommend a supplement, you go out and you buy something and it hurts you.

Kathy: Mm-hmm.

Jason: Okay, which is maybe the least likely thing to happen, because I don’t think that these companies are out there putting bad stuff in because they want to hurt people. But one of the most likely harmful things that could happen is if I’m like, man, Kathy, you really need some magnesium, right? And so if you go out and take some magnesium, it’s going to help you with like your headache or whatever. And then you go out and you buy some magnesium, but it’s really

[45:22] wheat filler, and you take it and it doesn’t fix your headache, and we’re like, man, we’ll scratch that off the list. It wasn’t magnesium. You didn’t actually take magnesium, right? And that’s harmful to people. They could get better from a good recommendation, but if the stuff is crap and we don’t know it, we’ve checked something off the list that could have helped. Right?

Kathy: Yeah. So for my part, I have the conversation with people. I tell them, listen, this is what I recommend. And

[45:53] I have a brand that I recommend, or a couple brands that I recommend, and you can order it. The dispensary that I sell supplements through, it allows me to kind of do a sliding scale in terms of the discount that I give.

Jason: Okay.

Kathy: I give the maximum discount because my biggest worry is people who are concerned about price shopping —

Jason: Right.

Kathy: — and they go out and they buy something that doesn’t have something in

[46:23] it. It doesn’t have anything in it, right? And so I want to do everything that I can to make sure that if I’m recommending something to people, that they are taking the actual thing, because I choose companies that have third-party testing and everything. So people are probably listening and they’re like, wow, this sounds like a great idea. I would love it if there was some third-party testing of my supplements. I wonder — if you’re taking these peptides, they have not been third-party tested.

Jason: No, likely not. There is no —

Kathy: There’s no mechanism for it.

Jason: No. Yeah, there’s no mechanism for it.

[46:53] Kathy: Yeah. So ordering it off the internet — bad move.

Jason: No, don’t do it.

Kathy: Getting it from your gym bro —

Jason: Yeah.

Kathy: — bad move. And so —

Jason: We’re talking to you.

Kathy: Yeah, Jenny, come on, girl. Yeah, and just like, man, you’re probably already tanned enough. For real. Goodness. All right, I feel like I’ve just beat the heck out of this topic.

Kathy: I think we beat it.

Jason: Yeah. But I think this is an important

[47:24] conversation to have. Yeah, and I’ll say this — I would love for this to work.

Kathy: Great.

Jason: Like I think it would be amazing. I just want to see it done safely and accurately. If this stuff works, I’m going to be putting it on every joint, tendon, ligament, anything like that in my body. I will be bathing in this stuff every night if it’s safe. But it’s so risky right now, so risky.

Kathy: It is. I’d just go do some street drugs instead. This is a great time for the disclaimer,

[47:55] right? None of this is health advice.

Jason: This is not health advice.

Kathy: Pure entertainment.

Jason: Pure entertainment we’re talking about.

Kathy: Of the Joe Rogan variety. And look, you knuckleheads went out and bought just whatever he said. We’re making an episode about the Wolverine stack because of his entertainment value. So yeah. Should we play a game?

Kathy: I would love it.

Jason: All right. For this game, we have our special host, Raul. Raul’s going to be running this. What you got for us, Raul?

Raul: Hey everyone.

[48:25] Okay. So today y’all were talking about the Wolverine stack, so we’re going to test y’all’s knowledge on everything Wolverine.

Jason: Okay.

Raul: Including — I just did a whole bunch of stuff on the Wolverine stack.

Jason: Right. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Perfect. So it’ll be comic books, animals,

Kathy: sports teams,

Raul: Okay.

Kathy: movies.

Raul: All right.

Jason: Okay. Yeah, we’re going all in on Wolverine.

Kathy:

Jason: Oh, I know that movie. Okay. My favorite

[48:56] movie. I hope I get that one.

Kathy: Growing up, I hope I do.

Raul: So we’ll go back and forth between y’all. Does anyone want to go first?

Kathy: I’ll go first.

Raul: Okay, you go first. I’ll just give you trivia questions — answer it. If someone gets it wrong, the other person will have a chance to steal. Okay, so I’ll just steal all your points.

Kathy: Yeah. Sounds good to me. We’ll see. Good luck.

Raul: Okay. So — question number one. Hugh Jackman played Wolverine in the X-Men film franchise for over two decades. Okay. True.

[49:26] What year did he first appear in that role?

Kathy: Yes, we started with the right person. What year was he first in Wolverine? 2002. I don’t know. Just throwing it out there.

Raul: So close. It was actually 2000.

Jason: 2000. Right at the start. Okay, here we go.

Raul: Okay. So number two, this one’s going to

[49:56] Jason. The wolverine is the largest land-dwelling species of its family. What family of mammals does it belong to?

Jason: Oh, you said family of mammals. I was going to say mammals.

Kathy:

Jason: Nope. No. What family of mammals does it belong to? Anteaters. No.

Kathy:

Jason: Is it a marsupial? I don’t know.

Kathy:

[50:26] Jason: No, it’s a bear, isn’t it? I don’t — freaking heck. A skunk bear. Kathy: I don’t know if I know what a skunk bear — Jason: A skunk bear is a wolverine. Okay. The wolverine is a skunk bear. I think I made this game too hard. Kathy: Jason: Shout out — sure if I’m going to pronounce this correctly. It says Mustelidae. Mustelidae. Kathy: Mustelidae? Jason: Yeah.

[50:57] Kathy: Oh, that sounds made up. Jason: It does sound made up. Google Wolverine — it does not say skunk bear, Kathy. Stop saying skunk bear. Kathy: It’s skunk bear-a-saurus Rex. All right, Kathy, your question. Okay. Kathy, number three — are wolverines skunk bears? Yes. What? Wolverines are often called skunk bears because of their thick, bear-like appearance and potent foul-smelling musk they emit, similar

[51:30] to the skunk. A type of animal. It isn’t. It is a mustelid. I think we got to give it to Kathy. But what? But — you know why? It’s the Mustelidae-ishus or whatever you said. How do you spell that? Okay, it’s M-U-S-T-E-L-I-D-A-E. That just sounds like a bunch of letters. I’m going with Mustelidae-ishus. I get the point. Here, let me give you — let me tell you why I call them skunk bears. Jason: She’s cheating. She’s looking at Google. Kathy: Well, I’m calling them skunk bears

[52:01] because this is a shout out to my good friend, and it always comes back to Notre Dame. Jason: Yes. Kathy: And my Notre Dame classmate was a Michigan State Spartan. Jason: Uh-huh. Kathy: Karen — Jason: Oh, you’re giving me answers. I like it. Keep going. Kathy: Yes, Karen. Mm-hm. Shout out to Jazzy. We call the wolverine skunk bears because, of course, we don’t — we have a common enemy. Jason: Because, of course, science. Kathy: Skunk bears. Jason: All right. It always comes back to Notre

[52:32] Dame. Oh, jeez. I hope that’s one of the questions. I’m going to steal that. Okay. So funny that you mentioned that. Number three — University of Michigan’s athletic — I get one. Kathy: The wolverine skunk bears. Jason: Uh-huh. Yes. What’s the official color combination though? Kathy: Oh, um — it is — it is not blue and gold. It is — oh my gosh. I know this because

[53:03] they’re — I think we’re not blue and gold. God. What do they call their yellow color? Garnet? No. That’s red. Hey. All right. to throw it to Jason. Jason: Okay, we’re going to go with blue and — it’s a — sunset yellow. Kathy: No.

[53:33] Jason: No. What is it really? Kathy: It is blue and maize. That’s what it is. Jason: Hey, is that the corn? Yes, the blue and the maize. Ah, gosh, man. God, Jazzy would have been in the top three. Kathy: We’re not Big Ten people. Shoot. All right. I had — I was going to get one. Blue and maize. That’s right. Number four for Jason. I think the winner of this is going to have exactly one point. Go ahead. Jason: Potentially. In the Marvel Comics Universe,

[54:04] Wolverine’s real name is James Howlett, but he goes by a different nickname most of the time. What is it? Jason: It is Logan. Kathy: THAT IS CORRECT. HEY, THAT MIGHT BE OUR WINNER. AND IN A IN A good Wolverine movie at that. Oh, man. Jason taking the lead. A half a point. Okay. Kathy, this next one for you. Number five. Wolverines are known for their incredibly strong jaws.

[54:36] What is one notable prey animal that wolverines have been documented killing despite the size difference? Jason: Bears. Kathy: So, honestly, like this is one where I feel like there’s probably multiple answers, but they only gave me one. Elephants. I don’t know. Okay. You can throw it to Jason. Yeah. Shoot. I don’t know. Wolverine versus mountain lion. Mm. Not quite. Okay, so

[55:06] — rightest though? Honestly. What’s the answer? They were — okay, so let me clarify. They’re going for a prey animal. Jason: A prey animal. Yeah. Kathy: Oh, oh, oh, oh. I’ll give you a region — okay, yeah. It’s a reindeer. Yeah. Jason: Of course wolverines would kill a reindeer. Stronger jaw than a reindeer. It would kill — Kathy: Reindeers have a strong jaw. Right. They

[55:36] hate Santa. That must be why Santa — oh, wow. Okay. Wow, that’s a weird question. It’s a weird question, yeah. All right. So, definitely some niche knowledge here. Kathy: Okay. I feel like we’re driving the struggle bus. Number six. So, in the 2013 film The Wolverine — Jason: Yes. Kathy: Logan travels to which country? Who’s this? Yours. Mine? Oh, okay. Yes. All right. And most of the movie is set here in this country.

[56:06] Kathy: Mother Russia. Jason: Not quite, Kathy. Kathy: God dang it. Iceland. Jason: No, we’re looking for Japan. Kathy: Oh, duh. Gosh, I knew that. Yes, okay. Largely set in Tokyo and rural Japan. Oh, right. The Wolverine. I was thinking Logan. That’s what I was — Jason: I see. Okay. That’s what I was thinking of. Yeah, but yeah, of course. Yes, well, yeah. So, it’s apparently based off of the classic 1982 Frank Miller and Chris Claremont comic arc. Yeah. Yeah.

[56:37] Great action sequences in that. A little bit of katana v. claw. Like it. All right. Okay. So disappointed in myself. Number seven. The wolverine’s natural range is mostly limited to cold climates. Okay. I’m going to say, name one of the two regions or continents where wild wolverines are found. A continent? Jason: Oh, you better get this one because I watched that show Alone. And yes.

[57:07] Kathy: The continent — if I say North America — Jason: There we go. Yeah, the Arctic Circle. Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah, so northern Europe and North America. Okay, sweet. All right, tied. Tied so far. Okay. Lock in, Jason. Okay. It’s not wanting to show me this. Being difficult. Why are you up? Oh. Okay. My gosh.

[57:37] It’s not letting you have the rest of the questions. It might be stalling me. Okay, there we go. Okay. Kathy: I was going to say we might have a soccer tie. Jason: I know. Okay, I think we’ll go for a tiebreaker. Okay. Okay. Is this like the first person to buzz in? Is that what it’s going to be? Ooh, I like that. Let’s do it. I like that. Okay. Sweet. So, this question — What is the name of the 2024 Marvel film that brought Wolverine back to the big screen? Kathy: I have no idea. Jason: Deadpool. Yes, but the full name.

[58:09] the deadest of pools. Wait, no. Which one was it? The dead— It goes with the steam. Goes with the steam. With the steam. Oh, with the steam. Let’s see. Wolverine— No, Deadpool, like regeneration and—

Kathy: Oh, yeah. Deadpool Wolverine. Is it Deadpool Wolverine? Yeah, I think I got to give it to Jason for—

[58:40] Jason: I SAID THE WORDS. OH, YEAH. THAT WAS A TOUGH ONE.

Kathy: GOLLY. Maybe the hardest game we’ve ever played. All right, Kathy, here she comes. Okay. Take homes. The supplement industry is an issue.

Jason: Yeah. Okay. And the fact that people are injecting things that they bought off the internet is scary. Yeah. Yeah, that’s a good take home. Yeah. Here’s another take home.

[59:11] To the Jennys of the world, be smart. And be careful. And we can trust doctors.

Kathy: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jason: Ask your doctor.

Kathy: And these public health systems that exist, they exist to keep people safe. It is much more likely that these things exist to keep you safe than that there is a conspiracy theory out there which involves hundreds of thousands, if not

[59:43] millions of people, some of them making minimum wage,

Jason: Yeah.

Kathy: who have not exposed these theories. It’s much more likely that these are good people trying to help and protect you than that there is some sort of boogeyman that’s trying to keep something that is valuable, life-enhancing, life-protecting, out of your hands. So, this might be the real deal. Wait for the signs.

Jason: Yeah, let’s wait.

Kathy: Wait for signs. There’s no harm in that.

[60:13] Jason: No, just wait. Mm-hmm. Okay.

Kathy: Okay. And you don’t need to be black like me. Right. No. Yeah. All kinds. We need all kinds. Yeah, just do the bronzer. Mm-hmm. All right. So, like and subscribe. If you heard something that you liked, please subscribe. Share this with a friend. We love a good review. We love a bad review. We just want to know that you’re out there in the troll line, right?

Kathy: If you don’t like it. Yes. And you don’t even have to like it to subscribe.

[60:44] If you heard something that you hate and you think this is really dumb, just subscribe. Yeah. Cuz hey, you’re already popping peptides. So, let’s just get crazy, right? You’re already doing a bunch of stuff that doesn’t make sense. Just subscribe to this podcast already, okay? And there’s one more—

Kathy: And there’s one more thing. One more thing.

Jason: Yes. There’s no I in—