Hands‑on Healing or Hype? Exploring Biodynamic Craniosacral Therapy with Keenan Bloom

[0:00] Kathy: Okay, Jason, who have we had on this show so far? We’ve had, what, like a dietitian, a cardiologist, a running expert, a chiropractor — Jason: Chiropractors. But have we ever had a biodynamic craniosacral therapist? Kathy: Did you just make that up? Jason: Well, we’ll see. Today we actually have a biodynamic craniosacral therapist, Keenan Bloom, who is here to tell us exactly how he is changing — his life, or changing other people’s lives — with just his hands and the occasional elbow.

[0:30] Kathy: Ooh, now I’m going to watch this whole episode. Jason: Oh, you should. Kathy: This is the pitch. Jason: What happens when a chiropractor and a physical therapist get together to make a health and wellness podcast? Kathy: Chiropractors and physical therapists don’t like each other. Jason: Oh, think again. Kathy: I’m Dr. Kathy Lynch, physical therapist who likes to help people move and get stronger. Jason: I’m Dr. Jason Young, an evidence-based chiropractor who uses humor just as much as adjustments to help people get better. Kathy: Welcome to the PTCH Podcast. Jason: Remember, there’s no I in PTCH.

[1:00] Jason: And we’re back. Okay. Well, thank you all for tuning in to the PTCH Podcast. I’m Dr. Jason Young. Kathy: And I’m Dr. Kathy Lynch. Jason: All right. And this is our guest here, Keenan Bloom, who is a biodynamic craniosacral therapist. That’s so fun to say. That’s so great. You know, you do a lot. Jason: Yeah. I’ve been practicing a lot. But Kathy and I have known Keenan for a long time. He’s been practicing here in Corvallis for the last six years, and your business is Liquid Light

[1:31] Healing, and you do craniosacral therapy. Jason: Awesome. Welcome, Keenan. Keenan: Thanks for having me. Jason: Yeah. Kathy: Yeah. Really good to have you here. I know that Jason and I have shared patients with you over the years. It’s been spectacular to send them on to you. Jason: I’ve been on your table. I’ve been on your table. Keenan: On the table, too. Kathy: Yes. Okay. Jason: Yeah. Kathy: All right. All right. Jason: Now we’re sharing PHI. It’s good. Yeah. Kathy: Mm-hmm. Jason: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Kathy: Mm-hmm. Jason: Okay. Kathy: What’s your date of birth, Keenan?

[2:02] Keenan: I’ll give you my social and my credit card number. Jason: Perfect. Good, good, good. I already have your pen. So, all right, Keenan, you’ve got to explain to us — what is biodynamic craniosacral therapy? Kathy: Besides a mouthful. Keenan: Besides a mouthful. Thank you very much. Yeah. I’ll do my best. So, before I get into it, what I’ll say is that for every single person that I see, I ask two starting questions before I get into explaining the work. One is, how much anatomy have you

[2:33] studied in your life? Jason: Obviously both of you — no, no, no. Yeah. I’m a chiropractor. She’s a physical therapist. Keenan: It’s really amazing what they let you get away with. Jason: Yeah. You might know us as nerds. Kathy: Yeah. Keenan: Usually my first question is, are we billing your insurance? Okay. So, what’s your anatomy background? How much do you know? Right. Exactly. Which is just helpful in context of how to talk about this stuff, because there’s some people who know a lot of anatomy and I can go really into the details with them, and some people who know no anatomy at all and I have to be really general.

[3:03] Keenan: The next question that I ask — and this goes into, I guess, the ways in which — I’ve said this to both of you before. The work that I do, there’s a lot of stuff out there that’s very woo-woo. The work that I do isn’t all the way woo-woo, but it’s definitely one woo. Jason: One woo. Keenan: It’s grounded in anatomy and physiology, but there definitely is an element — there’s a point at which it does become a little mystical, a little like something unexplainable is occurring. Jason: This is exciting. The most exciting episode we’ve had yet. Okay. Let’s go.

[3:34] Keenan: So what I ask people is, on a scale of “everything in my life must have empirical evidence” to “I put my crystals out in the full moonlight every month to charge them” — where do you find yourself on that spectrum? Jason: I’m a 7.2. Keenan: So, what I say is that for most people, every single part of our body — every muscle, every bone, every nerve, every organ — everything is moving all

[4:04] the time. That motion is called motility. People are often more familiar with mobility, which is my ability to move my arm. But motility is, in a sense, my arm being moved. Every single part of our body is expressing motility all the time. Jason: Yeah. Like, I think a lot of times people think about this in the context of digestion. Keenan: Sure. Right. Stuff I don’t have to think about. Well, sometimes I do think about the stuff traveling through my intestines. That’s not good. But I don’t have to like think about it and

[4:34] consciously do it. Jason: Yeah. Does it on its own. Keenan: Or I think sometimes if you swallow something that’s a little too big and it gets stuck in your throat, then it just disappears — motility, right? Jason: Okay. Exactly. Keenan: That’s everywhere in our body. Every everything is doing it. There’s a pattern to it. So, the way in which we see this is sort of flexion and extension, Keenan: or within the biodynamic community, we call it inhalation and exhalation. Jason: Okay. Keenan: So, in inhalation, it follows the pattern of our body when we inhale.

[5:04] So when we inhale, we go into extension in the bones, and then our parallel limbs are going to externally rotate, and then with exhalation, flexion, and then internally rotate. Jason: I have an important question. I’ve got to explain this one for people who are just listening — though you really should be watching. But, Keenan, you have amazing hair. You do. He has great long flowing hair. It’s the first thing that you notice about Keenan when you meet. Does your hair have motility too? Does

[5:34] hair have motility? Keenan: Good question. My guess is yes — I would say my hair does have motility. Jason: Yeah. If you’re not watching, what’s happening is not just that his hair is gray — it’s constantly flowing in the breeze. It’s really beautiful. Keenan: Thank you. Thank you. Jason: Here’s the deal. Jason, if I ever cut my hair — Jason: Mm-hmm. Keenan: I will make you a wig and you can have it. Jason: That — my hair wig. Keenan: You got it. Jason: Okay, great. Kathy: I like it. Jason: Yeah, I’m going to pass. I’m actually going to pass on that. Yeah, it’s a little

[6:04] It’s just, I don’t know. It’s maybe weird for me. Kathy: Okay. All right. So, it’s in the mirror. I didn’t mean to — I didn’t mean to derail your train. There we go. Okay. So, motility — motility. Every part of our body is moving. Jason: Yes. Kathy: Muscle, bone, nerve, organ, everything. Now, part of the reason why that can occur is that every part of our body is wrapped in fascia. Fascia is connective tissue. You can think of it like saran wrap. It wraps everything. Jason: We’ve talked about fascia in past episodes. Robin — we asked Robin Pester. She talked about fascia. Yeah, fascia was — running. Oh, Kenan — Kenan’s watched an

[6:36] episode. Kathy: I’ve watched an episode. Pretty good. Pretty good. I love it. Jason: What I will say — what I loved, actually — what she said is that the way in which she talked about fascia being intelligent. Kathy: Yes. Jason: And it being a faster communication network than nerves. Kathy: Yeah. Jason: There is absolutely, within my modality, within my training, the fascia of our body — it represents — I’m getting into the woo woo before. Yeah. The physical stuff — Kathy: represents, in a sense, the energetic matrix and how it maps into our body. It is the pathway through — through which

[7:06] our body communicates with us. Jason: Love it. Kathy: So, back to the other side of the hoola. Jason: Yeah. Kathy: Everything’s wrapped in fascia. There’s fluid in between the layers of fascia. That basically means that everything is wrapped in a little fascial envelope and surrounded in a fluid bath. And so everything can express its own independent motility right next to its neighbor, because nothing in our body is actually touching anything else, which is pretty wild. Jason: So that when that happens, our — and it moves in that way — our body operates the

[7:37] way it’s supposed to. Blood moves in the right way. Nerve impulses go where they’re supposed to go. Lymph does what it’s supposed to do. The body is a healthy, happy thing in equilibrium. However, trauma happens to us. Jason: Oh wow. We didn’t even practice that — Kathy: something was. Jason: So trauma happens to us. Trauma — there’s a lot of different kinds of trauma in our life. There’s physical, emotional, mental, intergenerational — lots of different kinds of trauma out there that we can experience in any given lifetime. We have a certain level of threshold of

[8:07] an amount of trauma we can handle at any given time. I’m going to use an example of a car accident because it’s easier for our minds to grasp onto an acute physical trauma than it is to chronic emotional stuff. Kathy: And lots of people have heard of car crashes. Jason: And lots of people have heard of car crashes. Yes. Some of you have caused them. Kathy: Yeah, some of you are likely. Jason: Some of you — some of you might cause one while you’re listening to the PTCH, right? It’s like, what’s happening? This is — okay, turn this up. Kathy: Yes. Be safe. Be safe. All right. Jason: So, when a car crash occurs — so let’s say you’re driving down the road,

[8:37] somebody almost hits your car. When it happens, you may freak out a little bit. You may shake, cry, scream, swear, tell the story over and over again. But eventually, you’re probably going to go back to driving like nothing ever happened. You may forget that anything happened in the first place. So here’s your level of threshold. That’s some trauma that has come in, but it’s below that level of threshold. Your body processes it. It may take time, but it gets rid of it. No harm, no foul. But let’s say you’re driving and the car actually hits you. You have G’s of impact coming into your body. In a sense, thousands of pounds per square inch of force hits your body all at

[9:07] once. And your body, your system does a really smart thing. It says, “Oh, if I were to experience all of this kinetic energy, in this case, at one time, we would not be alive to tell the tale. I’m going to sequester this and figure out what to do with it later.” So, in a sense, the momentum from trauma that we experience comes into our bodies. If it’s too much for our body to handle all at once, our body slows it down and stops it and holds it. Jason: That is inertia. Kathy: Okay, the — the word for this in my modality is an inertial fulcrum. A

[9:37] fulcrum is — you know, the pivot point on a seesaw — but it’s really, it’s that — it’s what is being gathered around; the entire seesaw is gathering around that point. Okay. What happens with inertia when it is held in our body: it acts as a fulcrum. Things gather around it. It acts a little bit like a black hole. Sucks things towards it. So for a physical thing, what started off as a — let’s say a shoulder injury from this imaginary car accident. Your tissues of your physical body are being pulled towards this inertia. So you got your brachial plexus

[10:07] here — that’s a nerve bundle, basically, that is supplying the innervation throughout the rest of your arm. All of a sudden, the rest of your arm can be affected. Jason: Yeah. Kathy: Your neck, your ribs, your lungs, everything is being pulled towards this inertia. So, everything can get worse. Jason: I just wanted to point out he was spot on with the anatomy. Kathy: He’s got it. Jason: It was perfect. Kathy: Got it. Jason: It’s not just — it’s not just woo woo, right? Kathy: I’m seeing — I’m seeing the science. I’m seeing it. Okay. Jason: So, that inertia pulls things towards

[10:37] it. It’s not just a physical thing, because our emotional states will be pulled towards the trauma that we experience holding in our bodies. Our mental states, our memories are going to be pulled into that. Everything gets yanked towards the trauma that we hold in our bodies. And that goes for if it’s an emotional trauma — our physical body is also going to be pulled towards that. Jason: Yeah. Like, I think that we hear this a lot. We have people come in and they’re like, I have a very unique condition. Kathy: I hold my stress in my shoulders. Jason: I’ve never heard that. Kathy: Yeah. You haven’t? Oh, yeah. I’ve — I’ve had exactly one patient who that was —

[11:09] that was their — it was — and it was in their shoulders; they were tight. Jason: No. Kathy: Yes. Yeah. No, but I think it’s a — I think most people have experienced this, you know, where it’s like — you have some sort of emotion, like maybe a hard day, stressful day, and you just feel it store itself in your body. Like — excuse me. Like my story — I think I told the story about my mom being diagnosed with cancer, and I remember like the day that I got the

[11:40] diagnosis, it was really hard. And that same day I was like, I need to go get a massage. I had somebody do some body work and I just like cried the whole time. And it was kind of nice because all of that — all of that that was stored up in me — just let go. And it helped me emotionally too. And so that was good. And sometimes, you know, I adjust people, they get a good emotional release. Kathy, when you’re exercising with people, they cry all the time.

Kathy: If they’re not crying, it’s not working.

[12:10] They’re not crying, they’re not trying. Right. But that’s what it is, right? But is that the kind of thing that you’re talking about, Kenan? Like if you’re not crying, you’re not —

But I mean, like, some of those emotions just getting stored up in the tissues. Okay.

Yeah. Exactly. Get stored. Or I had a client today that was talking about some of her past and some of her patterning around — basically stress of her job. I won’t get into the details of it, but

[12:40] she’s talking about, in a sense, the themes of the stress of her job that she’s no longer in.

She’s been out of for a year and a half because it was causing so much stress she had to leave. But as she’s talking about the kinds of stress and the theme around that,

all of a sudden she says, “You know what, my hip is bothering me — like the pain is popping in right now.”

Oh, she like brought it up just by talking about her job.

Exactly.

Okay. I’m just — so she didn’t work for me, did she?

She did not work for —

Okay. Good. Although technically I shouldn’t say anything.

[13:10] I mean, yeah. Can I confirm?

Yeah, we’re going to cut that part out.

No.

So, everything gets pulled into the trauma that we have.

In addition to that, our level of threshold of what we can handle drops every time we hold on to something new.

In a sense, what that means is whatever we could have handled yesterday, we can’t handle tomorrow because of the accident today.

Right. Okay. It’s in a sense like, you know, your backpack gets heavier and heavier with every experience that you have, and soon you’re down on the ground,

[13:40] can’t walk.

That sounds wonderful.

Like, I need to take a vacation.

I would like to lie down for a little bit, but no — actually, that’s not wonderful. It feels terrible, actually, to be paralyzed by, you know, the emotions that you have or the stress and things like that. So — so you’re helping people unpack their backpacks.

Correct.

Okay. So how do you do it? Like, is it a swift karate chop to the neck? Like, what’s the mechanism? How do you do it?

It’s a great question. So there’s

[14:10] two pieces, two angles I’m going to come from. One is the anatomical and physiological angle. The other one is —

woo woo —

woo. Yeah,

from the woo angle. Because every single part of our body is again wrapped in fascia, fluid in between the layers, and because no matter where the trauma is coming from, our body is being pulled towards that trauma. Again, if it’s emotional, mental, physical, doesn’t matter — everything’s being yanked towards that. What was a layer of fascia, a layer of fluid, and another

[14:40] layer of fascia — all of a sudden it’s getting pulled this way because of the inertia that’s over here. The fluid layer is going to be pushed out of the way. The fascial layer is going to come together and then — adhesion.

Okay.

Adhesion.

Yeah, that’s what it sounds like.

Stuck together.

So that — blood flow isn’t going to work as well.

No,

nerve innervation not going to work as well. Lymph drainage definitely not going to work very well. All of these things aren’t able to work, and most importantly for my work is that the motility of the body will not be able to express itself. Things are stuck.

[15:10] So what I do is I put my hands on somebody’s body and I pay attention to where is their body expressing motility and where is it not. Wherever it’s not, that’s where inertia is.

So now comes the point where I can explain this work. It can go a little bit further in the biophysical stuff, but I can explain this work up until a point.

Let’s get into the woo —

and then it turns into —

Yes. Woo-Tang. I mean — what I will say, quick aside, is that I think the reality is, as much as we really, really want everything to be explainable. As much as we really, really

[15:42] want our body to basically operate as a machine where you put input in and get some output that is

the desired result out.

It doesn’t really work that way, right?

Yeah.

Yep.

And — well, and everybody doesn’t really want that too, right? It’s like — because I mean, you think about the unrealistic expectations that people have

about their life and their health, right? It’s like, I want to eat this, this, this, and this, and I want a body like a god,

right? And so it’s like, if it always

[16:13] worked that way, I think a lot of people would be disappointed. Like, people don’t want fairness and justice. Usually what they want is mercy, right? And

so I think that there’s an aspect of our health

and some of these healing practices where it’s actually merciful — where it’s like,

we’re going to kind of deliver you from what you deserve based on what you’ve been doing.

Right.

Yeah. And I think there’s a way in which sometimes

[16:44] unfortunately the mercy that comes — or the relief that comes — sometimes it’s the last thing that people want. Sometimes they unfortunately are getting like dragged — not by me, because it’s like it’s their system doing it, or it’s whatever — like, our life will drag us through. I had a conversation with a friend the other day about that, that in a sense boiled down to like the difference between fate and —

free will.

Oh yeah, free will. That’s it. Yes,

free will. That’s that word. Fate versus —

[17:15] the way that I like to think about it is that everybody in our lives, we have

a sort of a destination that we are fated to go to.

However, to get there, it’s a little bit like a bowling alley with bumper lanes. We can make lots of different choices in our life. And if you get too far away from a trajectory that’s going to lead you to where you’re supposed to be, some bumper rail is going to come and hit you back that way.

Yeah.

That often can be a health crisis.

It can be a job crisis. It can show up

[17:45] in all like a life crisis of some kind or another. It’s going to knock you — and try to wake you up from whatever it is that’s actually happening. Yeah. So often those mercy pieces don’t feel that way because we’re getting hit.

Kathy: Yeah.

And no one likes to be hit.

Kathy: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

So you’re saying that inertia —

Yeah. So that inertia that’s in our bodies — I’ll go back one piece. Motility of the body is a measurable thing. We can see that motion occurring.

[18:17] Western med, for better or worse, has never really asked why is the body moving on its own all the time. The answer in this modality is that there is an energetic breath that breathes through our bodies. We’re into woo land, everybody.

There’s an energetic breath that breathes through our bodies.

It inhales and exhales just like our breath of air.

That’s where that inhale idea comes from. That exhale I talked about earlier of the expression of that motility. It inhales and exhales just like our breath of air.

[18:47] It is completely involuntary. We have no control over it whatsoever. And this is the — even more into the woo land — it has its own intelligence to it.

Kathy: Oh, dag. No.

Okay.

So this energetic — a little bit of history. So craniosacral therapy comes from osteopathy. A lot of people have maybe seen doctors that have a DO at the end of the name. Yes.

Kathy: Doctor of osteopathy.

Yes. Good old — what was his name?

Kathy: Andrew Still. Is that —

Andrew Still? Yeah, that’s the guy. Trivia.

Kathy: Yeah. Well, there’s people that say that DD Palmer stole chiropractic from

[19:18] him, but okay. Yes. So anyway, proceed.

So yeah, Andrew Still — he developed osteopathy. Part of that history, I’m pretty sure — at least I don’t remember which tribe exactly — but he got a lot of his knowledge and inspiration and ideas from, I think it was the Shoshoni tribe that was around him where he was in Missouri,

of basically using the bones of the body as handles to affect the rest of the body. Okay. In a sense, wherever there’s

[19:49] stuckness, wherever stuff isn’t moving, that’s where there’s an issue going to be. You got to get motion and movement to come in and then things will work better, and the body is all one piece and it’s trying to, you know, keep itself together and run well,

right?

He developed that. A guy named William Garner Sutherland, who is a DO who went through his training program, developed cranial osteopathy. He, in his workings with the anatomy of the skull, he saw what he called a respiratory

[20:20] system — what was the phrase? He looked at a disarticulated skull — let me see if I remember the phrase exactly — a disarticulated skull at the college where he was studying. And he said the bones of the skull are beveled like the gills of a fish, indicating a respiratory system.

Kathy: I knew it. I knew that those bones were just like fish.

Back to the fish.

Kathy: Always goes back to the fish.

And so the idea is that actually there’s circulation that is occurring of cerebrospinal fluid. And as that

[20:50] cerebrospinal fluid circulates through the body, everything is attached to everything and everything moves with it. Now what’s moving the cerebrospinal fluid?

He, at the time, didn’t have words. This was — you know — mid-1800s is when Andrew Taylor Still developed osteopathy. This is early 1900s that Garner Sutherland did this.

He didn’t have words for like energy, or prana, or that shakti, whatever, for the body.

Kathy: Yeah. ‘Cause we didn’t have influencers yet. So yeah.

Yeah. Totally. Yeah.

[21:20] What he did have was his tradition, which was Judeo-Christian, and he had Genesis. In Genesis — it’s I think 2:7 — it says that God breathed a breath of life into man and he became an animate being.

Kathy: Yeah. Okay.

So that breath of life, that phrase — he’s feeling this motion moving through the body, he’s feeling this energetic thing moving through the body. He’s like, “I don’t have any words for this. This must be what this is.” So it’s called a breath of life.

Kathy: Okay.

So this breath of life is moving through the body.

But — but there’s — but you’re saying that

[21:50] there’s other kinds of traditions, healing traditions, and even spiritual traditions where it’s the same kind of thing, but they just describe it differently. If I had to take a guess at that, I would say yes.

Kathy: Okay. All right.

One of the reasons that I say yes to that is I had a friend who’s an acupuncturist, and he talked about the cycle of energy through all of the channels — it takes 20 minutes to do a full complete cycle of moving everything through.

Kathy: Okay.

His training

[22:20] there — that energetic breath, that breath of life, has a few phases to it. It expresses itself at different rates. Okay.

It ranges everywhere from 10 to 12 times a minute to 20 minutes.

Kathy: Oh, what? Okay.

There’s a 20-minute cycle that, right now, is the longest one that has been sort of like observed. And so when he said, “Oh, that was 20 minutes,” all of a sudden I was like, “Oh, are we talking about the same thing?” And while — my — I like to believe that we are, and I — part of me — that’s the part of me that thinks that is also the part of me

[22:50] that cross-refers to a lot of acupuncturists, because I find that when people see acupuncturists and they see me they get better exponentially faster. Okay.

Something that’s being worked on from two different angles there. So the energetic breath —

My north star in the work that I do is that energetic breath. It’s the highest health in the system. It’s the resource in the body. By tracking that energetic breath, and how is it expressing itself through the motility of the body or not expressing itself through the motility of the body — that is what allows — that’s the sort of magic thing where I’m

[23:21] meeting the physical and the energetic at the same time — that allows shifts to occur, that allows the discharge — like you talked about, your experience on that massage table —

to occur on a deep level. Because in a sense what’s happening is I’m watching the body’s own healing mechanics, the body’s own healing process, unfold moment to moment, letting the body do the work. My goal is to listen as much as humanly possible, because at the end of the day the body knows how to

[23:52] heal itself. The body knows what order it likes to heal in. The trauma is like a game of pickup sticks on our body. We really think, it’s my knee. I got to fix my knee. I got to fix my knee. There may be a bunch of other things that we need to pick up first, and a bunch of other sticks, before we can get to that knee stick. Right.

Kathy: Mm-hm.

I don’t know what order a person’s body needs to heal in, but their body does. Because I may come with my preconceived notions of, oh, we got to start with the knee, or there’s, you know, pressure from them feeling like, oh, I got to go start my knee, you got to start.

Jason: If I go there and start working on that, and that knee isn’t ready to let go

[24:22] because there’s something else happening in the hip, and it’s not going to let go until the hip shifts, right? I’m just going to make more problems down the line. The body’s going to be angry with me and go back to where it was and hurt the patient more.

Kathy: How do you know where to start? Yeah. Oh, go ahead. Yeah. No, good question.

I know where to start.

Jason: Breath of life, every single time.

Kathy: Okay.

Jason: I put my hands on the person’s body. First thing I do is I usually walk around the table and just see where I’m sort of drawn to, because there’s definitely a sense — I don’t know. I’m curious for both of you, because you definitely are more mechanical in nature.

Kathy: Yeah.

[24:52] For me, there’s a way in which when I can walk around a person and just, you know, silently tune in with their body a little bit. And there’s a way in which there feels like — maybe it’s like a hot spot or something — but it’s just like, oh, there’s something going on there. I don’t know what it is, but there’s something there. And I think I remember this even when I was a kid. I used to give massages all the time when I was a kid. I was good at it. People liked it. I praise whatever. But at the time, for whatever reason, I knew exactly the spot to go to. And I could tell every person was just like, “Oh, right here.” Like, “This

[25:22] needs a rub.” Like, I don’t know why or what. Like, right here.

Kathy: Go to the singularity.

Jason: Yeah. And so I’m curious — do you have that? Do you have that experience when you’re working with people? It’s like, oh, there’s something here. Maybe my, you know, knowledge tells me it should be, but there’s something here.

So I think that that’s definitely a thing. I think that there are people that intuitively are good at getting to — here’s a problem. And I think that it

[25:52] subconsciously, for some people, is based on a lot of clues, right? Like, they can see the way that a person is holding themselves, or they’re walking, or what they’re protecting, what they’re not. And I think that subconsciously, intuitively, there are people that pick up on that. They can go to it. That’s the way that I feel that I am. Also, I think that there are high payoff areas, you know, when it comes to those things. And so, this is going to come as a surprise, but did you know that if you have a lot of stress — like emotional stress — a lot of that can be stored up in your shoulders?

[26:23] Yeah. So like the trapezius muscles — high payoff area. Suboccipital muscles — high payoff area. And I think a lot of it goes back to what you were talking about, with there’s some emotions and movements that are associated with other movements. So, you know, when you’re inhaling, you get some of that external rotation, extension. And if somebody comes in and they’re all bent over and everything, we know the muscles that do that, and so it’s like, yeah, why not just start there.

Kathy: Yeah. Can I backtrack to something real quick though, because I want to connect

[26:53] some of your woo with some science? Because I heard you saying that the mechanism — what you’re doing — it’s not like adjusting or manipulating or anything like that. It’s listening, right?

Jason: Okay.

Kathy: And then there is kind of a phenomenon in quantum mechanics where the observation of a thing changes the thing, right?

Jason: And that’s established. That’s science. It’s

quantum mechanics, so of course nobody

[27:23] understands it. But I think that some of these things that we look at, and it’s like, wow, this is woo-woo, this is magical — I think that, you know, quantum mechanics is something that it’s an emerging field. We don’t really know how to — well, we’re getting better and better at studying it, understanding it, understanding how to apply it. But I think some of the things where we’ve traditionally been like, yes, this is magical, it’s, you know, it’s supernatural — those are just

[27:53] terms that we use to describe things we don’t understand yet. And so I think that as I’m listening to you, there’s some of these things where my limited knowledge of quantum mechanics is like, oh, there’s a principle at play here. So are you quantumly fixing people’s problems by just sitting there and listening as they cycle through stuff?

Kathy: It’s a good question. And I think — you know, I’ll —

Jason: I think — well, first thing that I’ll say — like, this is a really — I wanted to say this on here. First thing I’ll say is: I don’t know.

[28:23] Kathy: Okay.

Jason: I want to say that because — for whatever reason — almost always, people in the medical field, especially doctors —

Kathy: Yes.

Jason: — do not know how to say “I don’t know.”

Kathy: Yes.

Jason: So they’re afraid to say it. They don’t know how to say “I don’t know.” And then when people come in, they get these random diagnoses — you’re basically throwing spaghetti on a wall and seeing what sticks. It’s like, just say you don’t know. And it’s actually a hallmark of expertise. Like, if you’re familiar with the Dunning-Kruger curve,

[28:54] right? So it’s — Google it, you can see it. But it’s this idea that when you know a little bit about something, your level of confidence is pretty high, right? It was like, “Guys, I listened to this podcast

and they were talking about biodynamic craniosacral therapy.” And so now I know everything about it. I know whether it’s BS or I know whether it’s real. But people are going to come in with a really strong opinion, and they’re going to have a lot of confidence in that opinion. And then as they start to look at it more, what they notice is that, oh, I

[29:25] don’t know anything, right? And their confidence drops. But then that puts you at a place where you can start building on that. And then when you get to a place where you are competent and you have some expertise in it, what you understand is what you don’t understand. And that’s how you can identify somebody who’s an expert. It’s because they’re not unrealistic about the idea that, oh, I just know everything about everything, right? And but I think that with medicine, I think that you do have a lot of

[29:56] doctors who will consciously acknowledge I don’t know. But culturally there is tremendous pressure, especially on medical doctors more than anybody, to know everything. Right. And to come up with a diagnosis. I mean the only way they’re getting paid is if they have to key in — they need a diagnosis code. So they pick one. Yeah. You know, and they got to go with what’s close to them — in their defense. Definitely. It’s the system that’s at fault. It’s not them. Right. Yeah. And so am I — am I quantizing? I only

[30:29] know some of these terms because my son, who’s two and a half — his father-in-law got him a series of science books for kids, one of which is quantum physics for kids. That’s great for a 2-year-old. Yeah. I know. Awesome. But so — oh my gosh, are you now a quantum biodynamic craniosacral — Yes. Quantum — therapist. Yeah, I threw quantum in there twice for good measure. Exactly. So basically there is something that

[30:59] changes with listening. Yeah. So listening to that breath of life, which in a sense is listening to the circulation of the cerebrospinal fluid and how that motion continues to ripple through the body — by tracking how that meets resistance, in a sense meets those adhesions, meets that inertia. That’s when something magic happens that allows something to shift. And it looks all different kinds of ways, but it boils down to exactly what you experienced on the table in that massage — discharge. Some form of discharge that again looks all different kinds of ways,

[31:29] but discharge that moves things out. And then once there’s enough discharge, once in a sense that fulcrum has enough of its stuff gone, there can be reorganization of the tissues to the natural patterns of health that were there before the inertia came in and clouded it. That’s the work, sort of in a nutshell. But it is about listening on a deep level. And I think there is something about how awareness changes something. Awareness. Yes.

[32:00] Yeah. It comes to mind because Jason and I have both shared patients with you, and you know, I was trained mostly to try to find the mechanical fault. Right. That’s just what we were taught in PT school. I wish that we could always find that mechanical fault, but we can’t. I have to say I don’t know a lot. And then they get imaging and we still don’t know, right? Oh, that’s a lot better than I do. I’m usually — I don’t care.

[32:31] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever. No, but I don’t know. That’s better. I’m going to try that. Try that one. So, when I get a painful shoulder and I can’t figure out — is it rotator cuff, is it labrum, is it this, is it that? And there’s nothing — you know, it’s coming up positive on my testing, but then they lay down on the table. Mhm. And then they start telling me, you know, trouble they’re having with their husband or their kids, or anything — you know, my mom is dying — all those kinds of things. And that’s when I think to myself, you know, this might be emotional pain that’s manifesting

[33:02] physically. And that happens all the time. Happens all the time for people. And not to pigeonhole myself in a way in which I’m like only working with sort of like emotional stuff that shows up physically. We have shared a patient in particular who I know is trying to avoid knee replacement surgery, and we’ve found that she sees me on Monday, let’s say she sees you on Tuesday, and she gets better results in PT simply by seeing me beforehand. And now — like, what’s going on there? I think there’s some way in which the inertia that’s there is holding all of this stuff that’s happened to her knee

[33:32] throughout decades and decades of damage — is shifting, which then allows — once that — because again everything’s being yanked towards it, right? Once that shifts, all of a sudden it can open up, all of a sudden the tissue can move. Now all of a sudden you can get more extension than you had before, right? So it all goes into itself. And not to say that I only pay attention to the energetics, because that’s where again this sort of magic piece happens in this work — like, where does the energetic and the physical meet each other? I see the inertia, I see the breath of

[34:02] life trying to move through it. I see the motility of the body, and then it’s like, oh, you know, that’s the vagus nerve right there where it comes in behind the carotid artery right there — like, that’s stuck right there. And you can feel it. Again it goes back to this sense of like, oh, there’s something there — just like, oh, it’s like a little itch or a little something — it’s like, oh, right there. And then you just pay attention to that, pay attention to the body breathing itself, and then it does it. One of the expressions in this work is “trust the tide” — the tide is an analogy that’s used for that energetic breath, because it

[34:32] feels like the tide of the ocean coming in and going out. So, well, let me ask a couple questions with this, because this is going to get us to maybe some of the real practical stuff, because there might be some people that are listening and they’re like, “Yeah, give me some of this.” Woo! Yeah, right. So first of all, anybody that is not a good candidate for it — or is there a certain type of person, a certain type of condition — old people, young people, anything like that? Because it sounds like it’s

[35:02] generally pretty safe. Might require a little bit of vulnerability, but is there anybody who you’re like, “Yeah, this isn’t a good fit.” I think generally it is pretty safe. Yeah. I don’t know if there’s anybody that I would really say, “Oh, don’t see me.” Mhm. What I will say about the vulnerability piece that you just mentioned — something that’s really nice about this work is that I actually don’t need to know the content of what’s being discharged. I don’t need to know the content that your mother got diagnosed with cancer

[35:32] and this — I don’t need to know that. If you want to share that as a part of the session and you’re on the table and you’re just letting things go, and it is helping the discharge process for you to talk about it, great. It’s going to go in one ear and out the other.

Kathy: So you’re not — you’re not doing mental health.

Jason: I’m not doing mental health. And that’s a big piece is making sure that I know how — how, when, and who to refer to, especially with mental health stuff.

So I don’t need to know the content, and sometimes the client doesn’t need to know the content. It’s sometimes just like this left, and

[36:02] sometimes — there’s often people who come to me and they’re like, “Oh, but what was it? What does it mean? It left into this thing. What is it? What does it mean?”

Kathy: You’re like, “Hang on, let me get my 12-sided die, my magic eight ball.”

Jason: Exactly. You know, it’s just — it’s like at the end of the day, the important thing is that it left, not what it is.

Kathy: Because if we continue to try to grasp on to what it is, in a way — our awareness is super powerful. As we talked before, at least alluded to. If our awareness continues to grow to grab onto the things that are no longer there, in a way that’s going to keep it in place. Like, being able to let it go is important. So is there anybody who

[36:34] shouldn’t see me?

Jason: No.

Kathy: Yeah. Well, I know that we’ve actually shared a patient who was a toddler.

Jason: Right. Yeah.

Kathy: Mm-hmm.

Jason: Right. Yeah. So, yeah, I work with babies. I work with infants.

Kathy: Which is amazing and lovely. I love working with infants.

Jason: Yeah. And they’re not really talking about a whole lot.

Kathy: They’re not really talking about a whole lot. They’re not.

Jason: No. No. Their body says it all. But it’s like — what’s nice about working with infants is that they move, they shift things so quickly.

Kathy: Yeah.

Jason: Like what happens with an infant is like they do four big shifts in a session and

[37:04] I’d be waiting, you know, like 10 sessions with an adult.

Kathy: And part of that — and maybe that goes into like who should see me and who shouldn’t — is that it’s sometimes yes, sometimes no. Everything is sometimes yes — I know. That’s true in life and that’s true in this work — is that sometimes somebody comes in and they’ve had a lifetime of trauma and stuff, and they come in and for whatever reason their body is ready, and they’re just like — they come on the table, something big shifts, and all of a sudden shoulder pain that they’ve had for decades is gone.

Jason: Mm-hmm.

Kathy: Their body was ready. Can I explain why it happened this time and not all the

[37:34] other people they saw — and then sometimes somebody comes in with the same stuff.

Jason: We work on it and they feel no different.

Kathy: Yeah. Mm-hmm. I don’t know why that is, but sometimes it happens. Sometimes it’s just the way that it is, and it’s sort of luck of the draw in life, too. You do your best shot and see what happens.

Jason: Okay. So, next question. Is it placebo?

Kathy: You know, I don’t know.

Jason: Okay.

Kathy: I love it.

Jason: What I will say is that there is something happening.

Kathy: Yeah.

Jason: Yep. Does it help if the person at very least

[38:05] suspends their disbelief?

Kathy: Yes.

Jason: Yeah.

Kathy: And I think that’s true for anything. Yeah.

Jason: Like if I have a birthday party that I’m supposed to go to and I really don’t want to go to this birthday party and I don’t like that guy at all, I’m going to have an awful time at this birthday party. Even if it’s the best. Even if they have a bounce house, I’m going to have an awful —

Kathy: I’m going to have an awful time at this birthday party.

Jason: Bounce house in your clinic.

Kathy: It’s coming up with the expansion that we’re undergoing right now. It’s coming up. Bounce house.

Jason: Well, we did an episode about placebo effect. And so I think it’s fair to say

[38:36] that yes — it’s placebo, because placebo is involved in all healing. And so you know, I think people have got to be on board, and that helps. Have you ever had somebody who’s come in and they’ve been like, “Hey, listen, dude, I’m not stupid, so like, you’re going to try and do your thing but it’s not going to work” — and then like, what’s the outcome? Like, have you ever had somebody who’s come in with that attitude and they’ve had a good session? Or is that person typically — okay, both?

[39:06] I’ve had somebody come in and say like, “Listen, I don’t think this is going to work.

Kathy: I’m here to just give it a shot anyway.

Jason: Trying to get my wife to leave me alone.”

Kathy: Well, that’s a separate one.

Jason: “I’m at the end of my road, I’ll just do it, whatever,” and then like something big shifts and they’re like, “Whoa.”

Kathy: I don’t know what you did, but —

Jason: So like, I had this guy — this was back in Colorado when I was working there — there was this guy who had bone cancer and survived it and was like — but pain in his body constantly.

Kathy: Yeah.

Jason: I just held his ankles for a while,

Kathy: tuned in with the bones of his body, and

[39:37] he was like,

Jason: “I feel so much better after that.

Kathy: I didn’t think I would at all.”

Jason: He just needed a little ankle hug.

Kathy: Just a little ankle hug. That’s it.

Jason: But then there was another person.

Kathy: Listen to his ankles.

Jason: There’s another person that I saw who was really clear — and this is now a rule that I have. And the osteopaths who do this work talk about it in their writings, and I should have just known because I’ve read these books. It was his wife — she saw me, loved seeing me. And throughout the process of seeing me, she’s like, “Oh, I’m trying to get my husband here. I think he’s going to benefit so much. I really want to get him here. I really want to get him

[40:07] here.” And then she left, haven’t heard from her for a while. And then all of a sudden somebody’s name pops up, says it’s for her, says it’s the partner.

Kathy: And he comes in. And to me, it wasn’t so clear at the time, but at the end of the session, when literally he’s yelling at me and calling me a charlatan and a fake —

Jason: Mm-hmm.

Kathy: I realized, oh — because I knew from the wife that there were a lot of problems in their relationship.

Jason: That’s a little bit of transference going on.

[40:37] Kathy: Transverse triangulation. This is what this is. This — I am now being triangulated in the issues that they have — are not coming towards me. So now I make it really clear with anybody who says, “I want my partner to come see you.”

Jason: Yeah.

Kathy: Please don’t. I’m happy to see your partner, and —

Jason: They need to look at my website.

Kathy: They need to look up information on their own. They need to have an intro call with me.

Jason: Yeah.

Kathy: And they need to make the decision to come in.

Jason: Yeah. They need to want to be here.

Kathy: They don’t want to be here, because if they don’t want to be here, it’s going to be a bad time no matter what. Again —

Jason: Even if there’s a bouncy house.

Kathy: Yeah.

Jason: Yeah. Well, I think the — I think the

[41:07] message is whether it’s craniosacral therapy, chiropractic, physical therapy, surgery, medication — you have to find a treatment that you can buy into, because if you don’t buy into it, your body is powerful enough that it will prevent that thing from working. And it’s also powerful enough that, you know, if there’s something that you buy into, there’s a better chance it’s going to work. And that’s pretty cool, right? Gosh, I feel like we could talk about

[41:38] this all day, but I think that —

Kathy: Going on —

Jason: I think that the most important thing that we could do right now is play a game.

Kathy: Yes. Okay. Do we want to play a game?

Jason: Yes.

Kathy: All right, cool. Let me pull up the game.

Jason: Oh, shoot. So of course I close it. All right. Oh, yes. Before we play the game, yes, there’s one nagging thing that I want to say — it’s nagging on the inside of my head. It’s about listening. So the last thing I want to say is, from you

[42:08] talking about me being a biodynamic craniosacral therapist — there are also craniosacral therapists who are not biodynamic.

Kathy: Okay. So a little bit of a difference in that.

Jason: So it’s a history difference — back into the history game.

Kathy: Yes. William Garner Sutherland. And then Upledger is the other half of it, right?

Jason: Right. So William — he was an osteopath who developed cranial osteopathy. Osteopaths took cranial osteopathy, ran with it, did their thing. In the 1970s —

Kathy: Upledger.

Jason: Yes. Took cranial osteopathy out of the

[42:39] osteopathic field and started teaching it to lay people and called it craniosacral therapy.

Kathy: Yes.

Jason: There’s cranio — he wrote a book called — it’s one of the craziest books I’ve ever read.

Kathy: I haven’t read any of his work.

Jason: Oh my gosh. He talks about healing using dolphin energy.

Kathy: Yeah. I think I still have — I’ll let you try it. I don’t know. It’s amazing.

Jason: I read it out of interest and interest alone. So — he developed — he took it out

[43:10] of the osteopathic field, called it craniosacral therapy, and started doing it that way. They, for the most part, are geared towards people who are already licensed in something else —

Kathy: Right. Massage therapists, chiropractors, physical therapists, acupuncturists, whatever. And so you can tack on craniosacral therapy as one of those things that you do. You can do a one or two weekend course, call yourself a craniosacral therapist. Done.

Jason: Biodynamic field — back to William Garner Sutherland. Ten years-ish before he died, he gave somebody a session on

[43:43] their deathbed. While he was there working on them, they died on the table. In his notes, he called it a successful treatment.

Kathy: Oh my gosh.

Jason: That’s what the body wanted.

Kathy: That’s what the body — you are released.

Jason: You are released. Yeah. Yeah. Jeez.

Kathy: There’s — what he felt during that time was an energetic power shift. This breath of life moving through the body in a more expansive and bigger way than he had ever felt before. And he realized that there is something

[44:14] else at play, because up until that point, the way osteopaths work with the breath of life — or primary respiration, we call it primary respiration; secondary respiration is your breath of air — and the way that craniosacral therapists who are from the Upledger school work with it is that the primary respiration is a metric to measure health.

Jason: Is it working? Is it breathing? Is it doing its circulation? Is it moving through all parts of the body? Is it not? It is a metric — a diagnostic tool.

[44:44] From that point that Sutherland experienced that with that guy on that table, he realized that actually the thing that is doing the work — the most important thing — is that primary respiration. That’s the thing that is, in a sense, in charge of the session.

Kathy: So from a biodynamic perspective, my focal point is that breath of life — that primary respiration — and I let it do the work. Somebody who is from an Upledger perspective uses more manipulative tools — not that I wasn’t taught manipulation, but —

[45:14] uses more manipulative tools and uses the cranial rhythmic impulse as one of the phases that they really work with

Jason: as a diagnostic tool to determine how well something is working or not.

Kathy: They’ve got like their V-holds and stuff like that.

Jason: Right, exactly, exactly. The still points, those sorts of things. And not — again, not that I can’t — you can do still points. A still point is basically where you stop the circulation of cerebrospinal fluid by putting pressure at the occiput, the bone on the back of the head.

Kathy: Okay.

Jason: And that basically is putting pressure

[45:44] on the occiput. It’s putting pressure on the brain stem and on the fourth ventricle, which is a little reservoir of cerebrospinal fluid. You put pressure there, stop the circulation of cerebrospinal fluid, and cool stuff happens. In a nutshell —

Kathy: It’s dangerous tech.

Jason: It’s a short period of time.

Kathy: No, no big deal.

Jason: No big deal. And like, I can do that from a biodynamic perspective, but instead of me putting pressure on the body and saying, “Hey, stop, stop, stop,” all I do is ask the system,

Kathy: hey, do you want to do a still point right now? And nine times out of ten,

[46:15] that body will all of a sudden just drop into basically the depth of an exhale and just stay there. Woo! And it just stays there and stays there and stays there and just sit in this silence and then all of a sudden it’ll pop back on. And usually something will happen and then it’ll pop back on, goes an inhale and goes in, and all of a sudden whatever we were working on before it’s fixed. Interesting. Wow. Okay. Well, good. That’s a good distinction because that is something I wanted to ask about. Right. So, cool. To be clear, I go — the biodynamic perspective, or that training I went

[46:45] through — it’s a three-year training program, similar hours to a massage therapist in the state of Oregon. Yeah. Wow. Well, and I think that’s really good that you brought that up because I remember when we first met and you probably remember this conversation. We were sitting down and I was like, “Kenan, listen. You seem like a really good dude. I’m not sending anybody to you.” Right? You remember this? I remember this. And the reason was because I was nervous about — like there’s no regulatory board, there’s no licensing,

[47:15] there’s no anything like that. And I was like, I’m responsible for the people that I send to you. And so if they go to you and you’re not ethical, you’re not trained — it’s not something real — that’s on me. And I remember that was a really uncomfortable conversation for me because I know that you had put a lot into this and I know that you’d helped people, and so it was just like — but I think that one of the things that impressed me as you explained

[47:46] that training and just as we got to know each other, like I knew that you were somebody that I could trust and then, you know, as we’ve shared patients and I’ve understood more — this has been really helpful. I feel I understand a lot more about it now. I think that what you do is really good work, and so thank you for being a good dude. So and I’ll say for those in the state of Oregon, luckily enough for the state of Oregon, the massage board has an

[48:16] exemption for people who went through the biodynamic training program in massage licensure in order to practice this work, because of what it is that I was taught and the things that I need to maintain. Yes. My license, or my Yeah, because you do continuing education and things like that. Yeah. And so, yeah, it’s definitely — yeah, it’s good stuff. It’s You have to do the work. Have to do the work. All right. Speaking of the work, now we have to do the game. This is — this is the only reason I come to the podcast, is for the games. Okay. So here’s our game,

[48:47] Kenan. All right. It’s real simple. It’s woo or woo woo. Okay. So I’m going to read to you about some healing practices. Okay, with a name, and you’re just going to tell us: is it woo, which we’ll call a real practice, or is it woo woo, which is like one that maybe I made up. Okay. All right. I love this. This is like — wait, tell me. Yes. We’re going to try and do this rapid fire. Okay. So we’re going to start with quantum eyebrow tapping.

[49:17] Tapping your eyebrows with fingertips or a mallet for brainwave coherence. Woo or woo woo? Does it have to have that specific name? Yes. Quantum eyebrow tapping. Well, because with EFT, that’s what that’s called. No. No. Is it woo or woo woo? Okay. We’re going to say — woo. It’s woo woo. I made it up. Okay. There is — there is the tapping.

[49:47] There is. Yes. Yeah. See, and I’m going to try and get close to stuff that’s real. All right. Here we go. We’re going to go with apitherapy. Okay. Which is using actual bee stings or bee venom injections to treat conditions like arthritis. I know somebody in Israel. Very good. Yeah. Know somebody who did it, had really great results. What about Lyme’s disease? What? Okay. With bee stings. Whoa. Holographic energy mapping.

[50:17] Projecting holograms through a prism or crystal onto the body to treat aura illnesses. That’s woo woo. I think somebody does that. Yeah. I bet somebody does that. Whether that does anything or not is something different, but I bet somebody does that. That is woo woo. Really? Wow. I’m not doing very well. I’m not going to get your voice on my voicemail. I love that — that’s such a fun show. Okay. Lunar lymphatic alignment: massaging lymph nodes during

[50:47] a full moon. No. Okay. I’m going to say that’s woo woo. You are right. Yes. Very good. Okay. Osteo-odonto-prosthesis. Okay. This is where a surgeon implants a part of a patient’s tooth into their eye to support a prosthetic cornea and restore vision. It’s tooth and eye surgery. Yes, I think that’s — yes, that is. Woo. Yeah, that is great. Isn’t that crazy? That’s amazing. Yeah, those quacks. Okay. Wow.

[51:17] To support the cornea. And how did you decide it has to be a tooth? I guess you can chop off a piece of a tooth easier than other bones. Yeah. Right. Yeah. A little more accessible. Yeah. Not as foreign. What about woo or woo woo? Fecal microbiota transplant. Doctors literally transplant stool from a healthy donor into a patient’s gut to restore healthy bacteria, often for C. diff infections. Yes. Real thing. That is woo. Yes. That is real. Never heard that. You just learned something today. Yes. And I’ve actually met some poo

[51:48] donors before. It pays pretty well. It does. Yeah, it pays well. Because how does one donate? Yes. They send it to a lab. They collect their dookie and they ship it off, and yeah, they get paid to stay healthy basically. Amazing. And yeah. Okay. We’ll do two more. Right. Okay. Astrological detox tea: treating energetic illnesses by brewing teas and tinctures under the apex of certain astrological constellations.

[52:20] Jason: I mean, I think somebody does that. There is somebody out there who does that. Kathy: There’s got to be. We live in Oregon, bro. Jason: We live in Oregon. Somebody in Portland does that 100%. If not, you should take this idea and do this. Kathy: We’re trademarking all kinds of stuff. Jason: This is one idea. This is me giving my idea out on the internet, but this is my one idea that I had — if you can get you sell tea to monks and brew their tea. But you know with tea leaves, you can do a second brew, right?

[52:51] You collect the tea leaves after they do their first brew, you collect them. Then you make second brew tea and then you sell that second brew tea because it’s been blessed by the holy monks for caffeinating your aura. Kathy: Oh, okay. All right. Jason: Because it’s less caffeinated. So you don’t — there we go. Your body, not your physical. Yes. It’s like homeopathic caffeination. Kathy: So, was that woo or woo woo? Jason: That’s right. Now, woo woo. Kathy: That is woo woo. Yes. Yes, you got that right. One more. Urine therapy. Some people actually drink their own urine or

[53:22] apply it to their skin believing it has healing properties. Unfortunately, that’s woo. Oh gosh. Kathy: Come on, people. Jason: People do it. I’m going to out myself on something. I don’t drink my own pee. You hopefully don’t drink other people’s. Kathy: I don’t drink other people’s pee. But I will out myself — which is actually fascinating. We tried this for a little bit. Okay, so you know how everybody says baby’s skin is so soft? Jason: Oh yeah, because it is. Kathy: Yeah. What are babies floating in for 9 months? Jason: Amniotic fluid. Kathy: What is amniotic fluid made out of? Jason: It’s made out of — you said earlier. Yes.

[53:54] Kathy: Yeah. Jason: What do you remember? Kathy: Salt water. Jason: It’s saline. Urine — is it? It’s baby urine. All of amniotic fluid comes from Kathy: their own urine. Jason: That’s it. I’m not holding any more kids. Kathy: And so if you want to try something — little pee in a jar, little Q-tip, try it on your hand first. Jason: I’m good. I’m just going to do the rough skin. Kathy: Saying it’ll make your skin the softest it’s ever been. Jason: Kenan, that’s the only part of

[54:24] the episode anybody’s going to remember. Kathy: That is totally — Jason: Now try it out. Kathy: I wanted to know. I’m just going to — I’m just going to point out and just go with this if it’s not true. Kenan doesn’t do that on his hands. Kathy: Yes, he does it. Jason: No, no, no. He wears gloves. Kathy: Truth — totally tried a couple times and then I — Jason: Yeah. Kathy: Okay. Jason: All right. So, just as a wrap-up, we like to do some key takeaways. Yes. So, Kathy, you want to share your

[54:54] takeaways first? Kathy: Yeah. My takeaway is the body knows how to heal itself. Jason: Love, love that you said that. I find that to be true a lot of times. Yeah. The tissue always wins. Kathy: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think one of my takeaways is — you know, because I really get concerned about the mechanism. How does it work? How does it work? And I just think that it’s so interesting that what you’re mainly doing is listening. Kathy: Which is crazy because listening in your modality is one thing and that’s what makes it work. And

[55:25] it makes me think I could probably listen more in my modality, too, and maybe get some of those same benefits. So, yeah. Any takeaways for you, Kenan? Did you learn anything here today? Kenan: Did I learn anything? I mean, I think I did — I can’t quite put my finger on it. What I will say is that I really enjoyed this experience. I really — Jason: Yeah, we loved having you here. We loved having you here. Kenan: Thank you for letting me talk about this stuff. I love geeking out on this. I also love — you know, I think there’s a stigma, if you will, just as y’all talk about how a physical therapist and a chiropractor hate each other. I think there is a stigma against

[55:55] some of the more woo things that are out there against the mainstream medical model. Jason: We’re all trying to basically help people feel better. Kenan: That’s it. Kathy: And especially what you said — listening. I think listening is so important because people don’t get it very often, Jason: especially in the medical field. Kathy: And again, this is because of the system. Jason: Yes. Kathy: Not because of the really great people who are doing it. Jason: Yeah. Great point. Great point. Kathy: Excellent. Well, Wu-Tang forever. Jason: Wu-Tang forever.

[56:25] Kathy: Wu-Tang forever. Jason: And kids, if you don’t know what that means, get on Spotify. You need to listen to some Wu-Tang later. My favorite one is Triumph. That’s such a great song. Anyhow, all right, but thank you everybody for joining us on the PTCH Podcast today. Thank you to our guest, Kenan Bloom. Liquid Light Healing. If you’re in the area, definitely check Kenan out. We can’t recommend him enough. You have a website? Kenan: I do. It’s liquidhealing.org. Jason: Okay. Kenan: You can find information there about my

[56:56] work with adults and you can find information there about my work with infants. Jason: All right. Excellent. Yeah. So, go check them out and definitely this is a good episode to comment on. Comment on, ask questions, all those kinds of things. As always, like, subscribe, just do all the things. But I think that if there’s one more thing that you should take home with you, it’s that there’s no “I” in PTCH.

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