Grief Is More Than Death | Tori Geter, LCSW

[0:00] Jason: Quick question. When was the last time someone told you to just give it time and you actually felt better?

Kathy: Um, never. That’s like telling someone with a broken leg to walk it off.

Jason: Right. So, why is that the default advice we give to anyone who’s grieving? Today we’re asking, is grief counseling actually evidence-based, or have we just pathologized being sad so therapists have something to bill for?

Kathy: Wow. First of all, good use of the word “pathologized,” and today we’ve got a grief counselor, Tori Jeter, here to either

[0:31] validate everything that we know or tell us that we’re completely wrong.

Jason: Which, let’s be honest, happens a lot on this show.

Kathy: Mhm. This is the PTCH.

Kathy: What happens when a chiropractor and a physical therapist get together to make a health and wellness podcast?

Jason: But chiropractors and physical therapists don’t like each other.

Kathy: Oh, think again.

Kathy: I’m Dr. Kathy Lynch, physical therapist who likes to help people move and get stronger.

Jason: I’m Dr. Jason Young, an evidence-based chiropractor who uses humor just as much as adjustments to help people get better.

Kathy: Welcome to the PTCH Podcast.

[1:02] Jason: Remember, there’s no I in PTCH.

Okay, everybody, welcome back to the PTCH Podcast. I’m Dr. Jason Young.

Kathy: And I’m Dr. Kathy Lynch.

Jason: And today we have with us a special, special guest. It’s our good friend, licensed clinical social worker Tori Jeter. Hi, Tori.

Tori: Hello.

Jason: Yes, welcome to the PTCH Podcast. So, Tori’s been a good friend of ours for a while.

Kathy: Yes.

Jason: Now. Yes, many, many months. Some of the

[1:34] best months.

Tori: The best months I’ve had in the world.

Jason: Yes, and I know that I’ve sent a lot of people to Tori to get some help with grief stuff. So, Tori, want to ask you a bunch of questions about your background — like, how do you become a social worker? Like, where did you go to school? Like, how did you get into this? So, let’s start with the school one. How do you become a social worker?

Kathy: Yeah, start there.

Tori: Okay, so to become a licensed clinical social worker, you need to have a

[2:06] master’s degree in social work.

Jason: So you are a master of social work.

Tori: Yeah, I also happen to be a master of public health.

Jason: Oh, okay.

Tori: One doesn’t get a license, so —

Jason: Womp womp.

Tori: Should have a license.

Jason: I’m going to start referring to you as “master.”

Tori: Yeah, yeah. We should do that.

Jason: Yes. So, master —

Tori: — license. Once you have the master’s of social work, in the state of Oregon — every license is regulated by state — so in the state of Oregon,

[2:36] you need to spend approximately 2 to 3 years. It depends on the clinical setting that you’re working in to accumulate a set number of supervised hours, and it is a lot of hours. I believe it’s like 3,500 hours. And then you take a really long exam.

Jason: So it’s not like being a doctor. Like, you can’t just go out, get a white robe and a red scarf, and start calling yourself a doctor.

Tori: Right. Yeah, I mean, you have

[3:07] to put in a lot of time. It’s like 2 to 3 years in the classroom, 2 to 3 years under clinical supervision.

Jason: Wow.

Tori: And then you take the test.

Kathy: And you pay lots of money. Oh my goodness.

Tori: And you have to pass the test.

Kathy: Yes, pay lots of money.

Tori: Pay the state lots of money.

Jason: Yes.

Tori: Yeah, yeah. And then once you get your license, you have to maintain your license every 2 years through continuing education.

Jason: Okay.

Tori: Money.

Jason: Okay. Take us back to young Tori and what

[3:39] brought you to this path.

Kathy: Yes, would 16-year-old Tori be like, “Oh my gosh, look, we’re grief counselors now.”

Tori: Yeah, 16-year-old Tori had no idea what a grief counselor was —

Kathy: Or even a counselor, a therapist, period.

Tori: Mhm. So there is a connection to young Tori, but the awareness of that connection didn’t come until much later, until after I had become a grief counselor, really.

Jason: Ah.

Tori: What brought me into grief

[4:10] counseling is — to get a licensed clinical — licensed —

Jason: Yeah, we know. The LCSW. We like it. To be the real deal.

Tori:

Kathy: To be master therapist. Yes.

Tori: So, I had been working as a public health practitioner with a labor union, and in that role, I had been doing a lot of — and still do — mental health awareness and suicide prevention, public health promotion.

Jason: Mhm.

Tori: And there was a death by suicide in

[4:42] the labor union at the training center, and there was a need for a grief counselor to come on board. And when I was searching for a grief counselor, I found myself saying, “Man, I wish that I could be the grief counselor.” And so that’s kind of what prompted me to go back to school and get a second master’s degree.

Jason: Okay.

Tori: And it was through my experience that really kind of solidified it. I started working with clients who had been living with unresolved grief for long periods of time. I took a training, and I was hooked, and

[5:14] I learned that — going back to young Tori — I kind of was like born to do this. Yeah. I love — yeah, yeah. It really is. It’s personal to me. You know, I think a lot of counselors and therapists come into this role because it’s personal, and I think healthcare providers in general, right?

Jason: Yeah, most chiropractors have been in some horrible car crash, or maybe a torn ACL or two. Yes. Yeah, it really makes me worry about some counselors, though. It’s like, oh, like

[5:45] is this the blind leading the blind, or —

But those people — you know who you are, or your colleagues know who you are.

Kathy: I worry about chiropractors too sometimes, you know.

Jason: Touché, touché. I probably worry a little more than you do.

Kathy: They’re definitely the blind leading —

Jason: Definitely look for that license, because the license does tell you that there has been a lot of time and effort and —

Kathy: Absolutely.

Jason: Yeah.

Kathy: Absolutely. Because there are some like

[6:15] Jason: Fake grief counselors out there, right? Like, are there like grief influencers — I might call them — where people are just out there slinging advice with no training?

Kathy: I don’t know that it’s with no training. I do know that grief is having a moment in mainstream social media.

Jason: Is it trending?

Kathy: It is, it really is. Yeah, and —

Jason: That hashtag grief, or no?

Kathy:

Probably. I mean, I’m not a big social media person, but it is definitely having a moment, and I’ll say that that’s

[6:46] a good thing.

Jason: Okay.

Kathy: Because we need to talk about grief more, right? Like, the things that make grief hard — that we’ll get into — are because our culture does not really have a framework for talking about hard things, or for how to navigate loss and grief in general. But just to go back to the influencers and whether they’re trained or not trained, there are a lot — I’ve seen like grief coaches — so there are a lot of people doing grief work that are not grief

[7:17] counselors, that are not grief therapists. And you know, I think that there’s a place for those people as well, and it really just depends on what it is the people are wanting. And maybe a good place to start is with a counselor and therapist and then kind of ease into working with the coach if there’s still more work to do. But you know, those coaches, those influencers are providing a good amount of education.

Jason: Probably not all of them, but —

Kathy: It’s not what I would have expected you to say. It’s really interesting.

Jason: Yeah.

[7:47] Kathy: Yeah, usually — at least my experience has been — people with the education, the training try and gatekeep, and it’s like, “No, no, no, listen, you don’t know what you’re talking about.”

Jason: Right. So that’s kind of cool to hear though.

Kathy: Yeah, I don’t want to gatekeep. I want people to know this information, and because I have seen, you know, non-licensed and non-therapist people sharing really important information — I think it’s good.

Jason: Okay. I will gatekeep spinal manipulation.

Kathy:

You can.

Jason: Yeah. Ouch.

[8:19] Not that it’s — it’s very helpful. We know these things. But anyway, back to Tori.

Kathy: Yes.

Jason: You mentioned about our society — like, you get three days of bereavement off. And then I need you back at work.

Kathy: Yeah, and it’s probably two days too many.

Jason:

Kathy: Yeah, and it’s only because we live in the state of Oregon that we get three days. So, you mentioned that culturally that’s a thing for us. Are there cultures where they do a really good job

[8:49] with this?

Kathy: I am not an expert in global cultures or grief across different cultures, but I do know that the answer is yes.

Jason: Okay.

Kathy: Right? Like, I know that in Mexico there is Día de los —

Jason: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kathy: Yes. There are some societies where the people in mourning wear — usually black — for a period of time, to indicate that they’re in mourning.

Jason: Yeah. Well, and it seems like there’s

[9:20] cultures that are much more in touch with the idea of ancestors and things like that. Whereas here it seems like it’s like you’ve got ghost stories, and then that’s it. So —

Kathy: And what are ghost stories usually?

Jason: They’re scary.

Kathy: Scary.

Jason: Yeah.

Kathy: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like, I had to tell Griffin and his little friends they can’t watch scary movies at my house anymore. So.

Jason: Mm-hmm, okay.

Kathy: Yeah, right.

Jason: Right, Griff?

Kathy: ‘Cause yeah, it’s just — yeah. Sorry, Griff. Not sorry.

Jason: Not sorry. Not sorry.

[9:51] Well — oh, sorry, go ahead.

Kathy: Well, there’s some cultures also — I guess we’re going to talk about death, right? There’s all kinds of grief. But if we talk about the way that we handle death in our society, it’s just so institutional. Right? Where in other cultures, you know, they’ll have the deceased person maybe in the house for a week.

Jason: Yeah, that’s right.

Kathy: Right? What is it — it’s an Irish wake.

Jason: Oh, is that what the — is that what the Irish do?

[10:21] Kathy: That’s what the Irish have — they have their deceased loved ones in the house for like a week.

Jason: Yeah.

Kathy: Wow.

Jason: I mean, we kind of treat birth and death in similar ways. We institutionalize both. Both of the polar — you know.

Kathy: Yeah. The bookends of life.

Jason: And yeah, yeah. So.

Kathy: Yeah.

Jason: We’ve done that, and I know that you guys are going to bring up the stages of grief, and I think that now could be a really good time to talk about it and why it has become so

[10:52] popular in our culture, because it kind of connects to what we’re talking about right now.

Kathy: Do it. Take us through those traditional stages of grief — — ‘cause I’ve heard this a lot, and I don’t know — ‘cause everybody kind of goes through some loss, but I think that people have heard this, there’s steps — like, what is it — like acceptance and —

Jason: That’s at the end. Yeah, that’s way at the end.

Kathy:

[11:22] Jason: I’m going backwards through it. That’s not a good sign.

Kathy: Like, there’s denial.

Jason: I started — yes.

Kathy: There’s denial. You know what? You’re going to be surprised — I don’t even know by memory what all the stages of grief are. That’s it. Denial is one of them. Anger is one of them. Acceptance is one of them.

Jason: Bargaining.

Kathy: Yeah.

Jason: Yes. And is Bitcoin one of them? That’s not one of them.

Kathy: Let’s see. I’m trying to think — maybe guilt is one of — I don’t know. Anyways, it doesn’t —

[11:52] Jason: But let’s just — and let’s just say that with your level of education, it kind of speaks to those stages — that that’s just not even part of the core curriculum, you know.

Kathy: Oh, well, that’s a whole other topic. Yeah, like, why don’t counseling programs or master’s of social work programs even have required coursework in grief and loss?

Jason: Yeah.

Kathy: Like, I had to seek out advanced training

[12:22] beyond —

Jason: Really?

Kathy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I did take one elective course because I was curious about palliative care. That was the only course that I had where we talked about death, loss, and things like that. So yeah, I had to seek out additional advanced training beyond. But getting back to what we were talking about — with the way that our culture responds to death and the stages of grief — are like —

[12:53] a really nice way to like package, right? Like we are a society that loves to have rules for how we do things, right? And we track everything, right? Like we track our steps, we track our calories, we track — Well, and there’s some finality it seems like to it. It’s like, “Oh, you did stage five. Good.” You’re done grieving. You have accepted it. Yeah, you don’t have to be sad anymore. You did it. Yeah. But the reality is that grief is very different.

[13:23] Okay. And so — Let’s see. What I want to say is that Elizabeth Kübler-Ross is the psychiatrist who developed the stages of grief, and she did not develop it for bereaved people. Really? Yeah, the research that she did that led to the book was done on people who lived with terminal illness, and it was their own internal process. Okay, that’s interesting. Wow, good to know. Yeah, and it was never intended to be

[13:56] implemented, or like — what we know of the stages of grief now were never her intention. And so it can be both problematic, but it can be a useful tool as well, right? And I think that it’s the gray area that is important. So like — as long as people know that this is just kind of like a framework, a guideline, but not hard rules. The

[14:26] the way that it becomes problematic is when there’s what a teacher of mine used to call a “second arrow,” where then we start thinking that there’s something wrong with us because we’re not doing grief right. Yeah. Right, because I’m supposed to be going through these — to be going through, yeah. Yeah, and it’s not linear. No, it’s not linear. Progress to acceptance — no end point. There is — Which would be a good time to bring out the concept of the grief jar, so that I can demonstrate that there is no end point. Can I get my jars now?

[14:58] Yeah, please — and I’ve been asked to narrate this portion for the people that are — listening. Please continue to drive your car, drive safely, eyes on the road at all times, unless we need a grief therapist. She’s bringing out the grief jars. Yes, these are Mason jars — that looks like a one-pint, maybe? Yeah, I think that that is a one-pint jar — that has the largest ball. So we tend to think — if you think of the jar as life and the ball as grief,

[15:28] we tend to think that what happens with grief over time is that grief just gets smaller. Smaller ball. Oh, yeah. And there was a smaller ball. And smaller, until we reach the end point where it’s gone. Just empty. Yeah, we don’t need this anymore. Right. But what actually happens — bringing out a quart-size jar. Mhm. And a gallon-size jar. When we experience a loss, initially,

[16:00] the grief from that loss is all that we can feel. It fills up most of that jar. Up against every aspect of our life. You can’t get away from it. You’ve got the big ball in the smallest jar. And then life carries on. There’s a model that I want to introduce, but I want to get through this first. But we will talk about this exercise again as I introduce that model. Yeah. But as life goes on, as you as an individual reinvest in life after loss,

[16:33] does some processing of their grief, what happens is our life actually gets bigger. You get a bigger jar. We have more space. Yes. And so then as life continues to go on, you can see — bigger jar. that grief is still there. Grief is still the same size. It’s just not bumping up against every aspect of our life. Yeah. Yes, I love that. I love that. A really great visual. Yeah. You know, this is — so a lot of this has

[17:03] already made me think a lot about the most significant grief experience I had, which was losing my mom. And that was a weird one because when we got the diagnosis — first of all, because I’m in healthcare, I understood what the diagnosis meant. It was devastating to me. I remember — I mean, if you want to talk about institutionalizing grief and everything like that — I remember I found out when I was at work. I was sitting in my office. I cried my eyes out.

[17:33] I had about 10 minutes to process that. And then I had to go to work because I had patients. And so I just kept working the rest of the day. Mhm. Then went and got a massage, got a chance to kind of clear my head. And I made a decision that I was not going to mourn my mom while she was alive. Mhm. And so, like, I didn’t — the way that I behaved around her, I think, was difficult for some of my family members because they were like, “He’s not taking this seriously,” and like, “Why isn’t he trying to build

[18:04] memories and moments and stuff?” And I was just trying to spend time with my mom while I still had my mom. And she appreciated that. We had conversations. She’s like — She did. Yeah, she’s like, “You don’t act weird around me, and I appreciate that.” And that’s not to say anything bad about my other family members, because I don’t think they were trying to act weird. They were trying to build something significant for her. But Yeah. then I think they interpreted what I was doing as like being callous, or pushing it down, or something like that. Avoiding it. Yeah. And then after we lost her,

[18:35] I felt like I kind of had a head start on that whole process, and I think there were some people who didn’t like my reaction then. But somebody gave me a really great piece of advice that really resonates with that jar analogy. They said, “This never gets better. It just gets further away.” Mhm. And I was like, “Oh.” And so I think as I’ve gone forward, it’s given me some opportunities where I get really sad that she’s gone — or like, something great, like my daughter got engaged this weekend. And so the very first thing

[19:05] Oh, you didn’t know that? Oh, yeah. It happened. Yeah, it happened. Yeah. Yay, Taylor! The the very first thing Congratulations. first thing that I wanted to do was call my mom and tell her, right? And but because I know that it doesn’t get smaller, like that doesn’t go away. It just gets further away and it’s — I have a bigger jar and I think that’s such a great analogy. Yeah. Good job. Yeah, I mean there’s so much that I want to say and I’m like, “Should we just have a session right now?”

[19:35] Because there — I mean you touched on a lot of different points. So, I guess the first one is there’s this model and you can feel free to hold it up if you want to. She’s got she’s got some visuals and stuff and what we’ll do is we’ll make that available to everybody. I’ll try — actually what I’ll do is I’ll just cut them in. So, you give me your visuals and it’ll pop up for people who are looking at it, but yeah. So, I’m going to walk through it. I’m pretty good at like talking through the visuals. So, this is called the dual process model and if you think of like one large bubble as life

[20:08] and then one medium-sized bubble on one side that represents the grief and the loss Mhm. and then on the other side the bubble that represents your life after loss, and the key term is reinvesting in life after loss, okay? And so then you want to imagine you’re oscillating between the loss and reinvesting in life after loss. So, what happens when a person

[20:40] does not do that oscillating is kind of when grief can get a little funky, right? So, if a person gets stuck in the loss and grief only, then that can lead to what the DSM calls prolonged grief disorder. Oh, it’s actually a disorder? Yes, and that can lead to significant impairment — functional impairment over time. And if one avoids the grief and loss

[21:10] altogether and just stays in like just life Mhm. part — like what can happen is — and not always — because a lot of people in our society are really good at the avoiding part, you know. Yeah. It’s an easy place to avoid things. We stay busy. We stay productive. We, you know, do do do do. Mhm. But it can be — you can experience delayed grief. And to me, so when you experience delayed grief, that grief

[21:41] — there’s like grief symptoms, the classic ones that we think of, right? Tearfulness, depression, anxiety. They can emerge much later. They can emerge years, decades later. And just like any emotion that we suppress, it can emerge in unrecognizable ways. Mhm. So yeah. Yeah, so that’s why I really help clients identify — and this education, this psychoeducation as we

[22:11] call it, is really helpful for people to understand like, “Okay, am I spending enough time with my grief?” Right. And that can look like a number of things. You mentioned that when your daughter got engaged, the first thing that you wanted to do was call your mom. Mhm. So if you were my client I would recommend that you write your mom a letter. Mhm. And there are ways that we can maintain bonds with our loved one.

[22:42] It’s actually called continuing bonds theory. Ooh, okay. I like this. And it just depends on what your relationship was to the person who died, right? What that — how that continuing bond is for you. There are things called linking objects that link you to that person and help you continue that bond. I have some Oh my gosh. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, anything like pictures, clothing items —

[23:12] I have my dad — my dad was a probation officer. I have his badge. Oh, nice. Yeah. Gosh, I think I have a couple of those things actually. Lot of those things. Yeah? So Jason and I have some things in common — another thing in common. I lost my mom tragically in a car accident. I was 29. And so I still feel like I wasn’t fully an adult Yeah. at the time and I grieved hard. She was my favorite person in the world. You know, I wasn’t with anyone at the time

[23:42] and so she was my confidant, you know, the person I called. I always trusted her opinion. Like she — and she would tell it to me straight. Even though she knew I might bite her head off, she would just tell me what I needed to hear versus what I wanted to hear. Like the tough love kind of stuff. Right. And so I grieved hard for that one. And I still have stuff around the house and Inga will be like, “Can we throw this out?” I’m like, “No, my mom gave that to me.” You’re — why are you trying to throw away my mother? And she’s like, “Okay.” She kind of like

[24:13] walks away, you know? I have tons of that stuff still. I’m still hoarding it. Do you have some advice? What — one of my favorite things that I have — and it’s kind of ironic — my mom collected crystals. So, she has these really big crystals and she gave Crystals? Yeah. Like there’s a big quartz one and like an amethyst and stuff like that. So, she gave them to each of her kids and they all just like gradually made their way to my clinic because they’re like, “Well, Jason’s a chiropractor. He can

[24:43] probably put these to good use.” On the table. Yeah. Yeah, totally. So, I have a room where they are and every once in a while when I have somebody who comes in and they’re really skeptical and stuff like that. And I’m like, “Listen, I’m a wellness space. We don’t do any of that weird crap, okay?” And then they’re like, “Okay.” And so I’m like, “Okay, well let’s do an exam. We’re going to do some range of motion. I need you to hold one of these in each hand.” You actually — did you do that? Absolutely. Yeah. And so then they’re holding these crystals and they’re like, “Okay.” And I’m like,

[25:13] “Give me those back.” And so yeah, I get to think about my mom all the time because my entire business is kind of — she wanted to be a chiropractor. Kathy: Did she really? Jason: Oh yeah. Kathy: Oh wow. Jason: Yeah. Kathy: Yeah, talk about like purpose and yeah. Jason: Yeah, I get to think about her all the time, so. Kathy: Yeah, that’s cool. Jason: Yeah, and Kathy, like I mean — I don’t know that hoarding is the right way to describe it — because I also have a lot of things from — I lost significant — like the

[25:43] people that I was most attached to by the time I was 19. Kathy: Wow. And when you — the way that you described your — you losing your mom — that’s when a loss actually becomes an attachment trauma. Kathy: So what does that mean, attachment trauma? Because Kathy was attached. Do you know anything about attachment theory? Kathy: I don’t. Tell us more about that. I don’t feel like I’m properly prepared to teach about attachment theory, but Kathy: You could just give a brief summary. You

[26:14] could just give a synopsis, yeah. The way that we attach to the people in our early childhood is the way that we orient to relationship. Kathy: That totally makes sense. Right? And so there is secure attachment, there is anxious attachment, there is avoidant attachment. But you described it really well — that like who your mom was to you, and when she was gone, you no longer had that person. Kathy: Yeah. So

[26:44] Kathy: Yeah. Um, so I guess going back to the stuff — I also — my — I lost my dad, my grandpa, and my grandma all by the time I was 19. And they were primary attachment figures. And so I have stuff that I still — you know, I love to look through pictures. My grandma was — she would have loved to be a journalist, so she wrote a lot of letters to the editor, so I still have those. I’ve got my dad’s badge. And I also have

[27:14] family friends who are linking objects. I’m able to, you know, stay in touch with family friends who can share stories about those people that — you know, I was so young that I didn’t get those stories before they died. And so now I rely on the people who knew them — sometimes even before I was born, right? Jason: Do you think that some of these attachments — these objects or people — do you think that they kind of remind you to be a certain way or a certain person? Do you know what I mean by that? Like — Yeah, I think they act as an anchor.

[27:44] Jason: Yeah, like when my grandfather passed away — and he was — he was like the anchor of his family. Like, just represented stability in every way. Like spiritual stability, financial stability, everything. He was a great guy. And so whenever we were cleaning out his house, everybody’s like, “Oh, he had these hats.” And I was like, “Oh yeah, I want a hat. I want a hat,” you know. And this is in Philadelphia. And by

[28:14] his bed, he had this like Louisville Slugger bat. And I was like, “That’s mine.” Yeah. And so I took that, and when you go into my house, it’s hanging above the front door. Kathy: Cool. And yes, I will crack somebody in the head with it if they come busting in my house. But mainly it’s there because it’s a reminder to me that I should be that security for my family. And so,

[28:45] yeah. So I’m done with that sentence now. Kathy: Yeah. I love that. Well, and also, you know, Raul, do you have onions? Are you the onion guy? Are you peeling onions? Raul: It’s allergy season in the Willamette Valley. Oh, guys. Jason: I was like, what are we talking about here? Now I get what we’re talking about here. Raul: Yeah, I just had a — I just had a little health issue there for a — Kathy: You guys are really making a good point that like — Jason: Yeah.

[29:15] It’s that grief is still there and that the jar is just bigger. We have to make sure — Jason: Britney, why did we sign up for therapy today? This is such a stupid idea. Kathy: This is great. I’ve been needing this. Oh my goodness. You know what, the one thing that I love about this too — and I think you probably agree — I love talking about my mom. Kathy: Yes. But you know, there’s only so many people left in the world that knew her. Kathy: Yeah. I luckily have two brothers and my aunt and uncle still that knew her, and so in this life here in Oregon,

[29:46] people don’t know my mom. They didn’t know her, and so I don’t get to talk about her a lot. But Kathy: I can relate to that. Yeah, I was going to say — something that you were mentioning earlier is that when a person who is a primary attachment figure, or even a secondary attachment figure, in our life dies, we lose a part of our identity. And so there’s — when you mention onions, I was like, yeah, we are talking about layers, but now we’re talking about tears — but we are talking about layers. There are layers to loss, right? That we don’t

[30:17] think about. And I can relate to that. You know, I have kept my grandparents’ and my dad’s — kind of their spirit alive through talking about them to my children, and I think anybody who knows me well knows my grandma and grandpa and dad. And I have, you know, thought about the fact that I think my kids mostly just tolerate it and maybe think I’m weird —

[30:47] because I talk about them so much. Jason: Yeah. Kids do that to adults. Kathy: Yeah. Yes. Jason: But I have thought about like — when I die — my sister and I will be the last people on this earth who really knew them, and so that’s kind of weird. Jason: Yeah, isn’t it? But you know what’s interesting about that too is it’s also the most normal thing in the world. Kathy: Yep. Jason: Yeah, because most of the people in the world have like no attachment — most

[31:20] people been in the world like it’s just like those those attachments fade away and it’s just I — I don’t know — it’s part of nature or something like that. It’s just hard for the people that are left, I guess.

Kathy: Yeah, it is. Yeah, I mean the last I heard none of us make it out. I mean, I think they’re trying — people working on that.

Jason: You clearly need to go to the chiropractor.

Kathy: Oh, what does the back of your shirt say?

Jason: Yeah, it’s harder to kill. Yeah.

Kathy: Not impossible.

[31:50] Not impossible.

Jason: Not impossible, just harder to kill. Try to kill me.

Kathy: Oh my goodness. Can you talk about something real quick, because I know sometimes when I’ve talked to you, or like listened to you speak, you tell us and remind us that what you do is not just about death and dying. There’s other things that can cause you grief. And so you help people with things that aren’t just about like the loss of a loved one. Yeah. So can you tell us more

[32:20] about that?

Guest: Thank you for bringing that up. I really — I had wanted to make sure to bring that up. So yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, yeah. Grief is not just about death loss, right? Like grief is about any kind of loss. So for example, I have worked with people who are experiencing aging, right? And losing the autonomy that they previously had.

Kathy: Oh, yeah.

Guest: And like figuring out how to reinvest in

[32:54] life after the loss of the autonomy that they used to have. And also mourning the fact that they, you know, can’t do the things that they used to do.

Kathy: Yeah. Pickleball.

Guest: Pickleball.

Kathy: They can’t do pickleball anymore.

Guest: Can’t play football either.

Jason:

Guest: Can you imagine though, like — I mean, some people love pickleball so much, and if a person who loves pickleball so much can no longer play pickleball —

Kathy: Yeah.

Guest: And that can happen even without aging, right? Like if there is some kind of change in mobility in the knee, waist,

[33:24] hips — I bet you do. I bet you both see that a lot.

Jason: I mostly see people getting it back. I don’t know what you’re talking about. Yeah.

Kathy: It’s the crystals. It’s your mom’s crystals.

Jason: Okay, yeah, that’s what it is. Mostly the crystals.

Kathy:

Guest: But you know, like even just like divorce —

Kathy: Yeah, yeah.

Guest: — is a really, you know —

Kathy: Big.

Guest: — really big loss for a lot of people. Some people it’s a gain, but —

Kathy: Sure.

Jason:

Kathy: Yeah. Well, I mean, because that’s like — I heard somebody

[33:57] — and multiple people actually — describe divorce as like somebody threw a hand grenade in the middle of my family.

Kathy: Yeah.

Jason: And it’s like — I fortunately have no experience with that. But I could imagine, just because of how I feel about my family, that sounds terrible.

Guest: Right.

Kathy: Absolutely, yeah.

Guest: Yeah.

Kathy: Losing a job.

Guest: Losing a job. That is a major loss.

Kathy: You lose your identity, right?

Guest: Yeah, our identity is so much wrapped up in our jobs.

Kathy: Absolutely. Yeah.

[34:27] Yeah, so there’s a lot of non-death loss that people can, you know, work through — that grief — and —

Jason: I’m a Beaver fan so sometimes we —

Guest: Oh, I bet you experience a lot of grief.

Jason: Hey, hey, hey — that’s not what I was talking about.

Guest: Okay, sorry — I don’t know what you mean.

Jason: I was just going to talk about the Pac-12, that’s it.

Guest: Even —

Jason:

Guest: People are still going through that grief though.

Kathy: So what you’re saying is this can apply to multiple facets of our life.

[34:57] Guest: Absolutely.

Kathy: Um —

Jason: I experienced some grief when my kids moved to college.

Kathy: Oh yeah, I bet. I bet.

Jason: Parenting is such an intense season of life.

Kathy: Yeah.

Jason: And they need you so much for so many different things, and then they’re gone and they don’t need you anymore, and they may or may not answer your text message — you know what I mean? Like I experienced grief from that.

Kathy: Oh, I bet. Well, and even with the good news about the marriage, there’s — I’ve been going through that too, where it’s like

[35:28] — you know, last week I just got this feeling like, hey, let’s get Taylor home for a weekend or something like that. And so I texted my wife and she’s like, yep, definitely, let’s do it. So we booked her a flight out here and everything was like, oh great. And then three days later she’s engaged and I’m thinking, I’m so glad that we did this, because we don’t get this opportunity again, right? We don’t get an opportunity where it’s like, yeah, you could just come here and be our daughter and, you know, we are our family. And so it’s just wrapping my head

[35:58] around the fact that like the family unit that’s going to be the most important to her now is going to be the one that she’s making, not the one that I made perfectly.

Guest:

Jason: And it was amazing.

Guest: Do you have your children out here?

Jason: Like, no — it’s never — there’s nobody’s ever done it like this before.

Guest: Did she write the book yet?

Jason: Uh, no.

Kathy: We have been waiting for the book —

Jason:

Kathy: — right? We are waiting. We really —

Jason: Yeah, yeah — we’re actually, before we release it, we got to talk about the movie rights and everything. So the lawyers are lawyering.

Kathy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[36:28] Jason: It is going to be a TV series. There’s actually going to be a whole station around it. It’s like ESPN, but for like me as a dad making a family show.

Guest: But getting back to grief — I wanted to bring up that there are lots of different types of grief. And I wanted to just share a couple.

Kathy: Mhm.

Guest: What we have been talking about with the kids — that is called ambiguous loss, or ambiguous grief. Where there is

[37:00] a loss, but it’s not a death, and it’s not like what we would typically think of as something that you would mourn, or that you would be able to go like —

Kathy: It’s not bad. Yeah.

Guest: Yeah. Yeah. But it’s still a loss and a grief.

Kathy: Mhm.

Guest:

Guest: And then there is — ambiguous loss can also apply — and I think this is really important for listeners too — when a person has Alzheimer’s.

Kathy: Oh.

Guest: And, you know,

Kathy: Mhm.

Guest: the person is still alive.

[37:30] Jason: Yeah. Kathy: It’s like losing them in real time. Jason: Yeah. Yeah. Or when there is estrangement, like family estrangement. There is a lot of grief and loss related to that. There’s another type of loss that’s called disenfranchised loss and grief. And that’s the type of loss where we don’t typically think that somebody should experience grief. So, for example, Oregon is really good at

[38:01] this, but there are states where a pet loss would be disenfranchised. I think Oregon is a very pet-centric state. But there are places in the world where if a pet died and a person was grieving, it would feel disenfranchised because they wouldn’t be able to talk about it. They wouldn’t have support. They wouldn’t have like the — it’s a type of supports. Yeah, sympathy, things like that. And um losing an ex — like an ex spouse or ex partner. Like, you know, there is grief for some people,

[38:33] you know, when an ex spouse dies, and that is definitely disenfranchised. Yeah, and then the last one I wanted to just mention is anticipatory grief. Jason: Oh, yeah. Kathy: So, you kind of described anticipatory grief in the way that you and your siblings kind of responded to that anticipatory grief differently. Jason: Mhm. Kathy: Which was a good — you highlighted really well how grief responses are very individualized. Jason: Mhm. Kathy: Very unique to the person, to the relationship that the person had with

[39:03] the person who’s dying or the thing that is being lost. Yeah, so anticipatory grief can also be really hard. Jason: Yeah. Kathy: When you’re kind of sitting waiting, sitting on eggshells. And there’s secondary loss. So, when a person dies, oftentimes a death will completely reorient a family. Jason: Yeah. Kathy: Or a change, right? Like you described with your daughter getting married.

[39:33] will completely reorient a family, and so there are secondary losses involved. Jason: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, like I know her sister, who’s her best friend, who isn’t living here right now — she has a lot of questions about like how does this change our relationship? And so, yeah, it’s just — I think the thing that’s interesting about it is that — what’s that saying? The only thing that’s constant is change. And man, it could be so difficult, because we are comfort-seeking

[40:05] animals. Kathy: Yeah. Jason: And when you arrive at comfort, hang on. Kathy: You want to protect your life. Jason: Yeah, because everything’s about to change. And so I think it’s good work to work on how resilient you are to change, and also how forgiving you can be of yourself when you’re going through change, whether that’s loss or gain or just things that are different. I think,

[40:35] you know, we see a lot of people who experience the secondary effects of this. Whether it’s like loss of mobility, loss of a person, all those things kind of show up and manifest in their life physically, too. Kathy: I bet they manifest and show up in your offices. Jason: Yeah. Kathy: And if — I mean, I presume this is a healthcare podcast, so I presume there are other healthcare professionals that — so I would just like to plug, you know, what I wish that healthcare professionals understood about loss and

[41:06] grief is that there are actual physical and cognitive and emotional manifestations of grief Jason: Yeah. Kathy: and loss that are showing up in their offices that may not, you know, be initially acknowledged as loss and grief. And so it can be helpful — like if you find someone coming into your office — you have done a really good job, Jason, at checking in, like: have you experienced a loss recently? Or have you experienced a significant loss, period?

[41:37] Jason: Period. Kathy: Right? Because of some of those delayed grief reactions. Jason: There’s one that we talked about even recently, where you know, somebody came in and just asked, you know, “How are you doing?” And I think they had taken a trip to a funeral. And a lot of times it’s like, “Oh, a funeral, that’s sad. Like, let’s move on to the stuff that you’re here for.” But I think sometimes it’s just a matter of taking a second — because I think the question I asked was, “Was this somebody close?” And then that opened up like a whole can of

[42:07] worms. And I think that typically providers, especially when you’re on a schedule — you know, it’s like I’ve got X amount of time to see you — so let’s not wander. But it can — you can really hesitate to be like, okay, we don’t want to dig, or I don’t want to hurt your feelings by talking about, you know, the thing that’s bugging you. But I think that having a professional that I can refer to allows me to kind of reach out in

[42:37] that way. And this is the thing with dudes — nobody’s asking dudes how they feel. Kathy: No. Dudes need to be asked how they feel a lot. Jason: Absolutely. And so that was the biggest deal — this dude was like, and he’s a dude, nobody’s asked me. Kathy: Right. Jason: Nobody’s asked me. And so it really meant a lot that somebody just asked him how he was doing.

[43:07] Kathy: Well, I think the more important question that you asked was: were you close to this person who died? Jason: Did I ask that? Kathy: Yes. Yeah, you did. Jason: Well, and so it’s like, okay, that guy got a good adjustment that day, but it’s not the most important thing that I did. And so — Kathy: Yeah. Jason: Having resources that you can connect people with in that moment, that day — I mean, he’s having the worst time of his life. It’s like the adjustment’s not going to fix that. He’s not like two pistol squats

[43:38] away from feeling better. You’ve got to get him connected with somebody good. And so — Kathy: Well, but the other thing that you did, Jason — and I like to say this often — grief likes to be witnessed. I actually think it is a living thing, and grief really does not — it just likes to, but it really needs to be witnessed. And you did that. Jason: Yeah. So what do you mean by that? Kathy: Well, I mean just having an opportunity to share and be vulnerable in a safe

[44:08] space where — in this example, you asked this person: were you close to the person who died? And that tapped into something for that person around like, actually — I know, sorry — I’ve been carrying, you know, this person and this loss and this grief inside of me, and now somebody’s asking me to show it to them. And that’s actually how grief gets metabolized, because otherwise it just

[44:39] stays in us. Like that. Grief gets metabolized. Hmm. I remember the day — the morning after my mom’s accident, I just was like on the couch, staring at the TV, like, how is the world continuing, right? Like, what’s wrong with you people? We need a pause button. I need a pause. Why are you laughing? You know, I just remember being like, how do I go on when the world doesn’t know how much pain I’m in? Exactly. Right? Yeah. And

[45:09] it was one month before 9/11. And when 9/11 came, I couldn’t care less. I was like, hey, my mom died a month ago. I need the same attention that these people are getting. Yes. Demanding. It was. Yeah. It was. Yeah. So, a little tangent — and then you talked about healthcare providers, you know, witnessing this. Do you have tips? Like, how can we bring this up? What do we say? Okay, so I think about this — you know, how Oregon has done a really good job at

[45:39] the trauma-informed — you know, Trauma-Informed Oregon. All healthcare providers, I think, have been trained in some kind of trauma-informed. I would say trauma- and grief-informed, because really, trauma and grief go together. They kind of are business partners. You know, they really are. And so, simply, like, if for example you have a client — or whatever you call your people that come in.

---

Coming in and having, you know, expressing outward symptoms, or sharing

[46:09] that they are experiencing any number of symptoms — like, cognitive impairment can be a symptom of grief.

Mhm.

The obvious one is crying, right? Like —

Yeah.

Tension. You guys might see muscle tightness.

Mhm. Mhm.

Anxiety.

Mhm. Mhm.

Depression, for sure. I think that a simple question, really — like I said earlier, in addition to — often times primary care doctors will say, “Well, let’s get you a prescription, right? For that anxiety or for that depression.” Which is not a bad thing. It can help kind of bridge the gap.

[46:39] Take the edge off.

But yeah, it would be helpful if an additional question were asked around, “Have you experienced a trauma or loss in your life?”

Mhm.

Yeah.

Adding that in.

Great.

Yeah.

And I wanted to say too — even just to the non-healthcare professionals who are listening — is that

[47:10] often times, you know, people will be like, “Oh, so now I want to tell everybody, like, oh, you might need to go to grief therapy.”

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, push, push, push. And it’s not for everybody, right? Like, sometimes people actually need to avoid a loss for a period of time, and that’s just the way that they have to do it.

Oh, that is good to know.

Sometimes it’s necessary. For example, when my grandma died when I was 19 — she died by suicide. It was a very traumatic and sudden loss.

Traumatic. Yeah.

I had a three-month-old baby.

Oh. You got to take care of the baby.

[47:41] I had to get on with life. I had to just do the thing.

Wow.

And I wasn’t consciously avoiding it.

Yeah.

But there just wasn’t a doorway for me to process that grief at that period of time. And it wasn’t until 20 years later.

Yeah.

Delayed onset.

---

I had patience that day, right? And it’s not those people’s fault that I got bad news, right? And so it’s like, sometimes you just got to be able

[48:12] to compartmentalize and get through for a little bit.

So something that I share with clients when they bring this up and they’re like, “I’m so worried about so-and-so because they’re avoiding and they’re not processing” — I encourage them not to push people, because we know what happens. You know, like, one of the best things you can say is, “You need therapy.”

---

Like, that’s going to work. But I recommend planting seeds, you know — like I’ve shared with you both,

[48:43] just say, “Oh, I happen to know a grief therapist and she’s shared all these things. Like, there’s this really cool model. Are you interested in learning more?” Or I will say things like — if it’s a family unit and there is concern that a younger person is not going to know the person who died as well — create a legacy box for that younger person, so that when that younger person is ready, or wants

[49:13] to, there is stuff that they can go to.

That’s cool. Really good idea.

Yeah.

So I think that my go-to — I don’t — because I get it. Like, saying “you need a therapist” is very in your face, and that’s almost like saying, “Repeat after me: no.”

---

I think it would be a four-letter word there.

My go-tos are, you know, “That sounds really

[49:44] difficult. Do you have somebody that you can talk to about that?” Because sometimes for people the thought is, well, I’ve got my wife, or I’ve got my friends. And then I follow up with, “Do you think it would help to talk to somebody about it?” And even if they say yes, like, “I’ve got my family” or something, I ask, “Do you think it would help to talk to somebody about it?” — because they might be thinking, I can’t tell my wife all of

[50:14] my feelings about this. Because I think sometimes whenever you admit those things, it’s a threat to the security of those relationships. And so it helps to have a third party where there are no stakes — being able to get all your feelings out there.

That’s why therapy, I think, is a profession — and it’s a really important profession — because I know I’ve experienced this, and I guarantee you most therapists have, where the majority of clients will say, “I’ve

[50:44] never said this out loud to anybody before.”

Yeah, I bet you hear that a lot.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, don’t say that at the chiropractor.

---

Jason’s got a microphone.

It needs to be —

---

— physical therapist.

Yes.

You could do things like, “I’ve never done this in front of somebody before.” Then — yeah, it’s like, yes.

**Psychotherapist, psychotherapist — let me clarify. Psychotherapist. **

Okay, let me ask you — because I think everybody could use this — what give us like a good go-to if

[51:16] You’re seeing a friend who has lost somebody close to them, like — friend found out that their, you know, parent died or something like that. Like, what do you say to that person the first time you see them?

Tori: Yeah. That’s so — yeah. Honestly, even as a grief counselor, there’s not like the one right thing to say. It’s really mostly about being present,

Jason: Mhm.

Tori: not trying to fix or change.

Jason: Right. Yeah.

Tori: If you have loss experience yourself, maybe like

[51:46] not go into it and make it about you, but just say like, “I can relate. I lost a parent,” or, you know. And is there anything that you need? Like, do you want to talk about it, or do you want — I know a great grief therapist. You want to talk, you know, like — I know that some people have benefits or there’s other resources. Speaking of resources, I sent you guys some resources.

Jason: Oh good. Yes.

Tori: There’s a couple of really great books and podcasts specific

[52:17] to grief.

Jason: Awesome.

Tori: That can be really helpful. In fact, one of the moments that grief is having is that Anderson Cooper started this podcast a couple of years ago called All There Is.

Jason: Yeah.

Tori: And he literally in real time is processing his grief — his delayed grief.

Jason: His father died by suicide, right?

Tori: Yeah, his — his father, I believe maybe even also his brother died by suicide, and then his mom died. And it was like his mom’s death that

[52:47] kind of was the thing that cracked open that delayed grief, which is often the case. It will be a current loss that then cracks open the delayed grief from past losses. And he was young when he lost his father, and so that’s a very unique type of loss. So yeah, he — I mean, that’s one really great podcast that I put on the resource list.

Jason: Yeah, so I’ll make sure that all of the resources that you shared make it into the show notes. So if you’re like

[53:19] listening on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, it’ll be in those notes so you have access to it.

Tori: I think the best advice I got, actually, was somebody came up to me at the funeral and said, “Don’t let anybody tell you how you should grieve.” Mhm. Right? Like, there’s no —

Jason: So supportive, isn’t it?

Tori: Oh. So I do repeat that to people too. Like, the best advice I got —

Kathy: Again, Kathy.

Tori: Don’t let anybody tell you how to grieve. Yeah, you’re going to do it how you do it. And my brothers and I — all three of us grieved differently. My older

[53:50] brother had a child and a wife, and so he, you know, he had things he had to do, right? I was single, my younger brother was single, and, you know, we all grieved differently, so.

Jason: Same with my sister and I. Yeah, so it’s just — yeah.

Tori: Yeah, and it’s okay. It’s okay to grieve differently, because I think that at the end of the day we’re all just kind of struggling to make it through, right?

Jason: It’s hard to be human.

Tori: It really is hard to be human. It’s a — it’s a full body contact sport.

Jason: For real.

[54:20] And it’s also not fair, right? It’s totally not fair.

Tori: Especially in modern society. I think that there was maybe a time when we were more connected and had — yeah.

Jason: And you know, I think that that’s one of my go-to’s also — like when I find out somebody lost somebody, I like to go to: that’s not fair. And not like it’s not fair that the person is gone, because who knows if they’re like 19 or 92, but

[54:51] I think that it’s okay to acknowledge that it’s like — it’s not fair that you have to feel like this about somebody that you cared about and that you loved. And I think that for some people that’s kind of comforting, you know? A little bit of empathy. Empathy’s okay.

Jason: Yeah.

Tori: It’s okay.

Jason: Empathy is really good.

Tori: It’s all right.

Jason: Hey Tori, every guest that comes on, we play a game.

Kathy: It’s games.

Jason: Would you like to play a game?

Tori: No, I don’t like games.

Jason: Well,

[55:22] I came up with a game that you’re probably not going to lose, okay? Have you ever done Mad Libs before?

Tori: Oh, yeah.

Jason: Yeah, so we’re going to do a Mad Libs about grief counseling, okay?

Tori: So — am I — okay, but I’m not being literal, like I’m being goofy like Mad Libs are supposed to be goofy?

Jason: All I’m going to do is I’m going to ask you for types of words like a noun, adjective, verb. And if you don’t know what a pronoun or a proper

[55:53] noun or an adverb is, I will prompt you, right? Just touch your nose. And the people that are listening won’t know that. Okay, here we go. So I’m going to prompt you one at a time for these. We’re looking for 10 words. We’ve done these in the past.

Tori: It’s going to — yeah, you’ll be okay.

Jason: It’ll go quick. We’ve done these in the past and I think the worst one — I think we were looking for like 20 words and like, yeah, like 17 minutes later people are not listening.

[56:23] But it ended up — okay, so here we go. I need a silly adjective. An adjective is a description word.

Tori: Okay. Yeah, um — twerk.

Jason: Uh, well, twerk is a verb.

Tori: Oh, you said an adjective. Yes, how to describe something.

Jason: Yes.

Tori: Okay, so like goofy.

Jason: Goofy, yeah. There we go. And next up — why isn’t this going faster? We’re going to need a quirky hobby.

Tori: A quirky hobby — underwater basket

[56:54] weaving.

Jason: Okay.

Tori: Like it.

Jason: And next we’re going to need a ridiculous verb ending in -ing.

Tori: Twerking.

Jason: Yes. All right, and now — it’s taking its time popping up here. A comfort food.

Tori: Mhm — cake.

Jason: Cake. What about an oddly specific location?

Tori: Yellowstone National Park.

Jason: Okay.

[57:24] Which has been making the news lately.

Tori: How so?

Jason: Oh, yes. Not because of something that they’ve done, but because of a — like a fake social media account, they got banned. It’s so weird. Yeah, look that one up. Let’s do an absurd animal.

Tori: Um — what’s that one? Okapi?

Jason: What? Okapi? What’s that?

Tori: Okapi.

Jason: You know.

Tori: Okay, good. Thank you.

Jason: I’m just going to spell that phonetically. What about a vehicle?

Tori: A Subaru Outback.

[57:54] Jason: Okay, of course. Kathy: Mhm. Jason: We’re in Oregon. Kathy: Yeah. Jason: Uh-huh. And a funny object. Can’t be Subaru Outback. That’s already been used. Kathy: A funny object, a bouncy ball. Jason: Okay. And we’re going for a number. Kathy: 12. Jason: Okay. And see, there’s one more thing, a cozy activity. Kathy: Aw, sitting on the couch watching

[58:25] Netflix. Jason: Okay. Netflix and chill. Kathy: Yeah. Jason: That’s a different activity. Kathy: It’s a different activity. That would maybe be classified as a verb. Jason: This is a PG-13 podcast. My bad. My bad. All right. Okay. Are you ready? Kathy: Ready. Jason: Here we go. Let’s see. This is — what is the — what is the title of this? Lost me my title. Okay. This is called —

[58:58] Where’d it go? This is the totally normal grief therapy ad. Kathy: Okay. Jason: Are you grieving and also goofy? Call Tory Jeter, licensed social worker and underwater basket weaving. The grief therapist who specializes in people who cope by twerking and eating cake in Yellowstone. Kathy: Oh, that’s so fantastic. Jeter Grief

[59:30] Therapy, we know your feelings can be as unpredictable as an okapi in a Subaru Outback. And that’s okay. We won’t say everything happens for a reason. Instead, we’ll hand you a bouncy ball, validate your grief, and help you schedule 12 sessions that feel more like sitting on the couch watching Netflix than a lecture. Side effects may include more crying, more laughing, and finally admitting that you’re doing something better than

[60:00] you think. Kathy: That’s awesome. And I think Subaru should sponsor this podcast. Jason: Amen. Amen. Or some — or some like bouncy ball manufacturer or something like that. Kathy: That was really fun. Thank you. Jason: I told you — you were going to win the game. Yeah. Well, what you did here today was fantastic. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. This is the part where we give our take-homes, and we’re going to give you an opportunity to kind of maybe share something that you learned, or something — nobody learns

[60:31] anything here except for us. So, Kathy, you want to start? Kathy: Well, the jars. The jars. Jason: Beautiful analogy. Kathy: Amazing. That — I feel like that’s where my life has gone. Jason: Yeah. Kathy: And luckily I’ve reinvested in life, because there — because you can make that choice, right? Where you don’t. And so, where the grief is always there, it’s just that your life kind of builds around it. Jason: Yeah, that’s beautiful. Kathy: I’m not going to take credit for that, but —

[61:01] Jason: No, that was really a revelation. And I think one of the things that’s most beautiful about it is anybody or anything that you care enough to grieve about should make you bigger, right? It should increase you. And Kathy: That’s a really good point. Jason: I think my take-home was — I really liked hearing that it’s okay that I’m attached to some of these objects, that they’re tied to it. I know. I mean, because — Kathy: Jason: You then feel bad about, like, not

[61:33] being with it, right? Kathy: Well, it feels kind of dumb or hokey or something like that, but yeah. I think — I think the other thing that I think about is my sister — when my mom passed away, she got some of her old clothes and she made them into quilts. So everybody has a quilt with old clothes. And she sewed on these little quotes and everything like that. So that is — when I get sick, when I’m not feeling good, that is the sole purpose of that quilt. It’s the only time I use it. And I lost it for like a couple years, but I just found it. So it’s like I’m ready to get sick again.

[62:04] Like, give me some allergies, like maybe a sore knee or something like that, or a hangnail, so I can get wrapped up in it. But no, I like that it is okay to be attached to these objects, and they should help us think about the people and the things that are important to us. You got any take-homes for us? Guest: You can stay connected to your loved one who has died, and you’re not crazy for doing it. It actually can be very comforting to stay connected and write letters to, or even talk to, you know.

[62:35] Jason: You say it’s comforting, like sitting on a couch watching Netflix? Yeah. Yeah. After that okapi was driving the — Guest: Yes, totally. Absolutely, through Yellowstone. I can picture it, you know. No, but thank you again. You are a wonderful person. I think that anybody who has you as their therapist is really pretty lucky. Guest: Thank you. It’s really meaningful work to me. Thank you.

[63:05] Jason: And I think there’s one more thing, Kathy. There’s no “I” in PTCH. Kathy:

[63:38] Hey.