Cardio vs Weight Lifting: Which is Superior?

[0:00] Kathy: All right, Jason. Quick question. Your cardiologist says do more cardio. Your orthopedic surgeon says lift weights or your bones will crumble. And your physical therapist says it depends. Who’s right?

Jason: Yes.

Kathy: Okay, that’s — that’s not an answer. Well, welcome to modern healthcare. Today we’re settling the cardio versus resistance training debate once and for all. No more arguments after this. Or at least until the next meta-analysis drops and everyone changes their mind again.

Jason: Yeah, and spoiler alert, that heart rate

[0:31] chart on every elliptical machine in America — misleading garbage. We have the receipts. This is the PTCH. What happens when a chiropractor and a physical therapist get together to make a health and wellness podcast?

Kathy: Chiropractors and physical therapists don’t like each other.

Jason: Oh, think again. I’m Dr. Kathy Lynch, physical therapist who likes to help people move and get stronger.

Kathy: I’m Dr. Jason Young, an evidence-based chiropractor who uses humor just as much as adjustments to help people get better. Welcome to the PTCH Podcast.

[1:01] Remember, there’s no I in PTCH. Oh, Kathy, I just remembered something. There’s no I in PTCH.

Kathy: In PTCH. You’re right. Hey everybody, I’m Dr. Jason Young.

Jason: And I’m Dr. Kathy Lynch.

Kathy: And this is the PTCH Podcast.

Jason: Are. In case you haven’t heard. So we’re well into year number two now. Yes, both feet, all 10 toes in year number two. I actually have to apologize because I said something

[1:31] really confusing like an episode or two ago. I was like, “This is our last episode.” I’ve had people that are all panicking. “So you guys aren’t doing this anymore? You’re taking time off?” No, I just meant it was the last episode of that year.

Kathy: Year. And I just sucked at saying it. So.

Jason: Yeah, I had people ask me too. And then we had another episode the week later. I ruined it. Yeah. No, so sometimes I just do a bad job of saying things. But you guys are stuck with us at least for another one episode.

[2:01] One at a time. Who knows? Who knows when this ride stops and we’re forced to get off. When’s Raul going to kick us out?

Kathy: Exactly. Oh goodness. But yes, things are still going well for the podcast. We’re still like a snowball rolling down a finely powdered hill. And always growing. Grateful for the people that are out there

[2:31] supporting us.

Jason: Still listening. As we try and support you. So. Very good. Kathy, I like today’s topic. This is an interesting one. This is a good one to send your gym bros. Maybe if you’re feeling really brave, you send it to the instructor that’s up there teaching false doctrine in your gym’s exercise class. But I think people have been talking about this one for a very long time.

Kathy: Yeah, well on Wonder Woman Island

[3:04] we speak the truth. Yes. So they’re going to get the truth today in today’s episode.

Jason: Training arena — for PTCHes, for PTCHes everywhere, right?

Kathy: Come to Corvallis, 9th Street. You can find

Jason: There we go.

Kathy: your own version of Wonder Woman Island.

Jason: So when is Helix Training being rebranded as Wonder Woman Island? It’s in the works. You got your legal team on it?

[3:34] Kathy: Yeah. Oh, that’s fantastic. Well, I know I get this question a lot. And I get this question in a few ways. There’s — it’s typically somebody who is getting back into exercise and they’re asking, “Should I start with cardio? Should I start with weights?” Or the other way is people who are like, “You know, I want to get back into exercise and so I’m starting with fill in the blank.” Sometimes people are

[4:04] like, “And so I’m starting with cardio because I don’t feel so confident about hitting the weights yet.”

Jason: Mhm. Or I’m starting with weights because they don’t feel so confident about doing cardio.

Kathy: Right. So what about you? Like what are people saying to you, Kathy?

Jason: Yeah, it is the age-old question. Mhm. I think this — if we scroll back to the ’90s, right? Back in the day.

Kathy: Great music. Oh. And leggings.

Jason: Oh yes.

[4:34] 90210.

Kathy: Yes, 90210.

Jason: Yeah, I was driving with the boys from Seattle back from spring break and I had to do a little ’90s music education for them.

Kathy: Oh yes.

Jason: We listened to Milli Vanilli.

Kathy: Milli — okay.

Jason: Uh-huh, yes. Little Run-DMC, some Beastie Boys, just all of it.

Kathy: Mhm. What about Ace of Base?

Jason: Ace of — okay, guilty pleasure.

Kathy: Sorry, more ’90s. That was more ’90s.

Jason: Guilty pleasure. Mhm. Ace of Base, big fan. Yes. Mhm. Love it.

Kathy: Yeah, and I’ll listen to it like

[5:05] shamelessly. Yeah, it’s good. Great music. So. Okay, is this a music episode or —

Jason: I think it was. It is now, so. Back in the ’80s, there was this trend — and I believe the American Heart Association might have been leading this —

Kathy: Mhm.

Jason: — that we need to do more cardio. We need to get that heart rate up. We got to get the blood pumping.

Kathy: Well, they didn’t even call it cardio, they called it aerobic.

Jason: Oh, that’s right. You’re right.

[5:35] Aerobic exercise.

Kathy: You need aerobic exercise and everyone had to learn what aerobic meant.

Jason: Yeah, what does it mean? I don’t know. Aerobic exercise is basically — so there’s basically two systems that you could be using, and she does know, okay? She’s just making me explain it because I work for her here on Wonder Woman Island. So there’s basically two energy systems that your body could be working on when you have to put out some

[6:05] power, right? You could be going aerobic or anaerobic. Aerobic just means with air. Anaerobic means without air. So yeah.

Kathy: 100% true, but —

Jason: Right. You’re mostly relying on your glucose and — and it’s kind of a misnomer because you can’t do aerobic exercise without, you know, glucose —

Kathy: Right.

Jason: — in your muscles, or glycogen, right?

Kathy: Right. And you certainly can’t do

[6:37] weights without air.

Jason: No, you cannot. Yeah. Have you tried that? I’ve tried everything at this point. No, and so it’s — but the term is really about what is your body relying on. And I think the easiest way for somebody to tell if they’re doing aerobic exercise as opposed to anaerobic exercise — like without putting on a mask and measuring your VO2 max or anything like that —

[7:07] is can you talk while you’re exercising? So, you can be getting some cardio riding a bike, but if you’re having a conversation while you’re riding that bike, you’re probably not getting cardio. You’re probably riding a bike.

Kathy:

Jason: Are you increasing your heart rate? Yeah. So, you mentioned VO2 max and I think that that gets thrown out a lot. Like, “Oh, you got to get your VO2 max up, you know?”

Kathy: VO2 max. What is that?

[7:37] Trademarked.

Jason: That I do know. I don’t know what aerobic meant.

Kathy: Break it down.

Jason: But VO2 max.

Kathy: Yes. You’re the — hey, you’re the — you’re the physical therapist. You tell us about VO2 max.

Kathy: Okay, so VO2 max, the official definition is the maximum amount of oxygen your body can use during intense exercise. So, it reflects how well your heart, lungs, and blood — muscles work together to produce energy. Your blood — muscles. Your blood muscles. You need all of — you need all that blood — the blood and

[8:08] the muscles —

Jason: Yes.

Kathy: — together. Muscles and the blood.

Kathy: And it is one of the strong — it is one of the strongest indicators of how well your body functions under stress. And so, basically, when we exercise, we are purposefully putting our body under stress. We put our body under stress so that the body adapts and gets better.

Jason: Yes. So, the heart is a muscle. Mhm. And so basically aerobic workouts is basically strength training for the heart.

[8:38] Kathy: The way I like to think about it.

Jason: Yeah. Yeah, so you’re doing the curls for the biceps.

Kathy: That’s right. And you’re doing the treadmill for the heart.

Jason: Yes. Please don’t do the treadmill.

Kathy: I hate the running man. I just hate treadmills. I hate them.

Jason: No. Yeah, it’s like — but my wife, I mean, she — we had a treadmill in our bedroom for a while. She loved that thing. Like I can still hear the sound of it. Every time you step on it. Yeah, oh my gosh. But I mean, it was really, really

[9:08] great for her. And me, I just didn’t love it so much. So. Yeah. Well, okay. Let me ask you this. Good cardio exercises, bad cardio exercises. Are there bad cardio exercises?

Kathy: Are we assigning morality

Jason: Yes.

Kathy: to these — we will today.

Jason: Okay, all right. Let’s do it. Let’s get down to it. Like do you have any that you — do you have any that you like?

Kathy: Well, I personally love spin bike. Mhm.

[9:38] I love spin bike classes. So, that really gets my heart rate up.

Jason: You can coast and still gain mileage. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Kathy:

Jason: I love the chafing. That’s what I’m in it for. It’s like, “Hm, what’s an exercise I could do that’s just going to maximize the chafing?” Right? Well, I have — I have leaned into the spin

[10:08] bike, the Peloton. If they’d like to sponsor us. Yeah. Peloton, hello Peloton, are you listening? Yeah. More in the last couple years, I have — I have this nagging knee pain and it’s the one cardio exercise that I can really get my heart rate up and not have a lot of knee pain with. I like to swim. Mhm. Boy, swimming is a pain in the neck. It’s a lot.

Kathy: It’s a lot of planning.

Jason: Unless you live on an island. Yeah,

[10:38] that’s right.

Kathy: Wonder Woman Island.

Jason: That’s right. Swimming isn’t that convenient in my day. Yes.

Kathy: When I retire, I will be swimming more.

Jason: Sure. In your private pool? Yes. Well, and you know what’s interesting now is there’s a lot more access to these — what are — not the infinity pools. Those are the — yeah, the — but the lap pools, like the — yeah, the swim treadmills where it just creates a current, which I think is really cool. I’m not a good swimmer.

Kathy: No.

Jason: I am not buoyant whatsoever. I have

[11:09] negative buoyancy. Look that up, it’s a real thing. Right? So, it costs me a lot. It costs me a lot to swim.

Kathy:

Jason: But — and no stereotypes. I know that’s what you’re thinking. No stereotypes. But yeah, I don’t love swimming. I like getting in the pool though.

Kathy: Yeah. Like during spring break, we were in the pool kind of wrestling a bit and I was like, “Woo, this almost feels like a workout. I should stop.” I’m on vacation.

[11:39] What am I thinking?” So, yeah. Okay, I don’t enjoy spinning. But I do spin. That’s probably what I’m doing the most for cardio these days. Yeah. And the reason is because — well, we got our Peloton during the pandemic, which — that is how they blew up, right?

Jason: Yes. Suddenly it was not safe to go outside and so you need to be inside riding your bike.

Kathy: I got it and I rode it some because

[12:11] it’s like, “Wow, this is expensive. I’m going to get my money’s worth.” And so, once I had it down — my average was like, you know, a thousand dollars a ride.

Jason:

Kathy: I was like — you know, it just got used and used. But then lately, I’ve been like, “I got to do more cardio stuff.” And the spin bike is nice because when you have one in your house, there’s just no excuse. There’s no excuse not to get on it. And so, that’s been working for me

[12:41] well. And I’ve just taken a different attitude with it where, you know, one of the fun things about Peloton is it’s competitive. Oh, you know — so good.

Jason: What is Dad Bod, you know, 22 and doing like how fast did he do this, you know? And so, you could just go compete with all these people. What I discovered is I can turn all that off and I can just like watch a show or something like that and I don’t need to kill it at my age in order to have a good spin workout. I could just get on, do my half hour

[13:12] spinning and onto the next thing. Okay. Yeah. I like that. So. You know, oh, sorry, go ahead.

Kathy: I was just going to say, what do you say to patients when they say — when you ask them what exercise they do and they say, “Oh, I like to walk, so I’m in pretty good shape.”

Jason: Well, first of all, whenever I have the exercise conversation with people, I’ve said this before, the thing that I’m most interested in is what do they

[13:42] enjoy doing because what they enjoy doing is what they will do. Yeah. And if people want to walk, I think that that’s great actually. Walking — there’s a lot of good research and evidence out there for walking. Walking is actually very good for low back pain, which I see every once in a while. And so, I encourage people to walk inasmuch as they’re doing it safely and in a way that helps them. You know, people get hurt walking. You’re out there walking your dog. You know how much money I make

[14:13] off of dogs? Oh, yes. Dogs. We love dogs, but dogs are wonderful. Yeah. I mean, shoulder injuries from a dog chasing a squirrel, pulling a person into a ditch, getting tripping over your dog, you know. So, but yeah, I like walking. When people come in they’re like, “I like walking.” I don’t discourage it. Do you? I do. I never discourage any kind of movement. But the question is, is it

[14:43] enough? Hmm, that’s a good question. Probably not. And it kind of gets to the heart of what we’re talking about because it’s just one kind of exercise. And there’s things that you could do to ramp up and down the level of difficulty on walking. Like, for example, I think level zero is probably walking at the track, which I call it level zero, but tremendous value in there. Yes, big value. And then level 10 would be hiking, right? You’re out there on

[15:15] some uneven terrain and stuff like that. Day like today in Oregon, it’s raining. It’s pouring down rain. No. Yeah. It’s a Peloton day. It’s a Peloton day. 100%. But like, I recommend — so when people are maybe coming back from an injury, or maybe they’re trying to get fit, they’re worried about, “If I get out there and I start exercising, what happens when I have a problem?” That’s why the track is great. It’s a soft, even surface, very predictable. And if something happens, like you have a spasm

[15:46] or you just can’t go anymore, all you have to do is walk to your car. You don’t have to now travel 3 miles back. So. Right. Just keep walking in circles. Yeah, just keep walking. Just keep walking. Just keep walking. Yeah. So, that’s really good. And I agree with you. There’s no kind of cardio where it’s like, “Meh, don’t do that.” Right. No. Unless it’s obviously hurting you. Yeah. Okay, well, what about the weights or the lifts? Well,

[16:18] I’m just 100% biased. Mhm. If somebody were to ask me, “Which one should I do, because I only have this much time in the week?” Mhm. I say prioritize — let me walk that back. Let’s do a little cardio and walk that back.

Jason: What are your goals for life?

Kathy: Okay. Hmm, mhm. Right? Yeah. What are your goals for life? Yes. Generally, a lot of people — this is all a big generalization, but I hear a lot

[16:49] from people: “I want to be able to play with my grandkids.” Mhm. “I want to be able to hike, you know, Mary’s Peak” — mhm — “in the summer.” “I want to be able to travel.” Yeah, you know. So those kinds of things. And so, if somebody were to say those things to me, I think more like, “Okay, I think this person needs strength training” — yeah — “more than cardio fitness” — yeah — “for that matter.” Well, they need them both, but it’s where do you start,

[17:20] right? Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it really is about where do you start, because I think you start with the one that’s going to be the most interesting to you. Yeah, true. Whether that’s the most fun. Some people want a good challenge. Some people are interested in easy. Like, “I want to work out, but I don’t want to have to work very hard.” Right. For some people, like going to the gym, lifting some weights, that’s their speed. Yeah. That’s a great place to start.

[17:51] Right. And that’s where you should start, because that’s what you will continue — mhm — until that is not interesting enough and then you need to add some more. So. Yeah. And I think you’re alluding to it earlier: the best exercise is the one you’ll do. Mhm. Mhm. Yeah, so find something you like to do. Yeah. And make it harder. I want to revise that statement. I think the best exercise is somebody that I can get somebody else to do for me. I don’t know how that benefits me

[18:22] though. So. But can we talk about one of the big reasons that people are like, “Hey, do I do cardio or do I do lifting?” It’s people are trying to lose weight. Yeah, really good point. Yeah. And so, can we talk about what I would call the big calorie myth? Mhm, we must. Yeah. Oh, I’ll talk about it. How about that? You brought it up. So, we hear calories in, calories out, which is a thing within reason. I mean,

[18:54] there’s some context where that doesn’t tell the whole story. So it’s a thing, but it’s also not good from the standpoint that people have an unrealistic expectation of what a high calorie burn exercise is going to get them when it comes to weight loss. Right. So, with the exception of all those guys who wore garbage bags and ran up and down the stairs at your high school during

[19:25] wrestling season. Oh my gosh. You know, just going out there and doing the maximum for exercise to burn calories is not really as effective for weight loss. It’s not sustainable. And it’s not that you are burning calories that you eat. You have to operate at a calorie deficit, but this idea that it’s like, “I had a 250-calorie piece of cheesecake.

[19:55] Now I need to do 250 calories on the treadmill.” It’s not how it works. It’s not. So sorry. So sorry, right? So it’s not a one-to-one thing. But so people are interested in that — so what burns more calories, cardio or weightlifting? That is the million-dollar question. That’s why we’re here. It is. I’m going to get paid though. I think cardio burns more calories, and —

[20:26]

— boy, this is getting complex, because if you’re on the treadmill and you’re looking, you can easily count, “Okay, this is my rate of speed, and when I’m moving at that speed, this is how many calories I’m burning.” Those things are not accurate. So — — so sorry. Yeah. That’s exactly what I’m doing. So when your treadmill says you’ve burned this many calories running, it’s not accurate. It can be off by like 300 to 400%. Yeah, that’s a lot.

[20:56] And we just have to think about why isn’t that accurate? Well, because when my great nephew goes running on a treadmill at 3 and a half miles an hour for 20 minutes, or I go on the treadmill at 3 and a half miles an hour for 20 minutes, it’s ridiculous to think that we’re burning the same number of calories, because I weigh 59 times more than he does, right? I think it’s like 57 times.

[21:26] Jason: I think yeah, it’s 57. I’ve been working out and hitting the Peloton. So yeah, so that calorie burn cardio is nice because it’s a little more predictable. Don’t trust your machines. But then you look at the way that people lift weights and it’s like there’s people that will go and they’ll do a bench press set. They’ll take a 45-minute nap. Kathy: Jason: They grab their phone, they scroll on on the gram. Yeah. And then go back and do

[21:56] a couple of bicep curls. Yeah, and so there’s different ways to do it. So I think cardio is better if you’re just looking to burn calories. Cardio is a little better cuz it’s more predictable. But does it matter how many calories you’re burning in your exercise? Yes and no. Okay. It depends. Oh, that’s that physical therapy thing. It depends, yeah.

[22:27] Kathy: Yes. All right. So what does it depend on? Jason: Well, the question was what? Kathy: The question was is there a number of calories that you have to burn to prevent Alzheimer’s? Jason: No. No, does it matter how many calories you’re burning? I mean, yes. Mhm. And that’s why yes and no. Yeah. Yes, it does matter how many you’re burning. But

[23:00] also it’s complicated because just cuz you think you’re burning calories does not necessarily mean you’re going to lose weight is what I meant when I said it depends. Yeah, and I think that’s absolutely true because Kathy: on what you’re looking for. Cuz and it goes back to the cheesecake thing, right? Cuz people are like, oh, I burned an extra 500 calories and so now I can be naughty and it’s like, can you? Because if you really want to lose weight, the most important piece of that

[23:30] equation from the calorie standpoint to focus on is your food intake. Yeah, it is the cheesecake, right? So eliminate the cheesecake and that’s going to make a bigger difference. Basically, you cannot exercise away a bad diet. Darn it. Yeah, I’m so sorry. Oh, do you hear that? That’s the sound of people all over Earth turning off the podcast. Yeah. Well, the body gets tricky too because you know, you talked about

[24:00] calorie deficits. So that’s where my mind went was like, does it matter how many calories you’re burning? Yes and no, but also if you go into too much of a calorie deficit, your body will retain fat. Jason: Yes. Kathy: To survive. Jason: Absolutely. Kathy: So in that case, just because you’re in a calorie deficit doesn’t mean you’re going to lose weight. So in the context of losing weight, it doesn’t necessarily matter. Jason: Yeah, absolutely, and so the metabolism makes a big difference. There’s another

[24:31] aspect of it too where it’s like if I decide that every single day I’m going to run to burn 1,000 calories. Kathy: Yeah. Jason: And you decide every single day I’m going to lift weights to burn 1,000 calories, and the two of us eat exactly the same thing, are we going to lose the same amount of weight? Kathy: No. Jason: No. You’re going to gain weight and I’m going to lose weight, right?

[25:03] But the difference is going to be the body composition. I will more likely be losing muscle because my body is reconfiguring to help me accomplish the goal of moving that much, right? And that’s not an anabolic activity. Running’s not an anabolic activity. Anabolic means something that’s going to build muscle. Whereas doing the same calorie burn, but doing something that is anabolic, lifting weights,

[25:33] that will build muscle and muscle is weight. And so there is a point of kind of diminishing returns and there’s some trade-off there. So balance. Balance is good. All right, I’ve got ADHD, which means that my brain is incredible at ideas and it’s terrible at staying in one lane. So for most of my life, focus is something that I’ve had to fight for. And then I found Brain.fm. No exaggeration, it

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[27:04] I can’t forget about hormones. You know why? Cuz I’m on this show. Kathy: Jason: Yeah, so the calorie thing and tracking your calories while you’re exercising and having your — it’s not bad, but it’s not as fine-tuned as you think, cuz I’ve talked with so many people who get frustrated cuz they’re like, here’s my calorie journal. These are the calories I’m burning. These are the calories I — and how come I’m not hitting my goals? And it’s because it’s like, well, cuz that’s not accurate, right? And it

[27:34] doesn’t tell the whole picture. It is one number. I like to joke with people when they come in for a new patient exam and we check their blood pressure, right? Blood pressure is like 120 over 79. Darn near perfect. I tell them, look, you’re totally healthy. Apparently, according to your blood pressure, you don’t have back pain, right? And it’s a hilarious joke. And it’s so funny because it’s like why would we think that one number determines

[28:04] how healthy we are in general? And it’s the same thing with calories. It’s the same thing with weight. Kathy: Jason: Just one number doesn’t — yeah. It just doesn’t tell the whole story or enough of the story about us. Okay, what do you know about EPOC? Kathy: This is the first I’ve heard it. Jason: Oh, really? Yeah, it’s not something a lot of people talk about, but it’s kind of gaining some steam. So EPOC is — exercise, or sorry, excess post-exercise oxygen consumption.

[28:35] So people talk about this in the context of weightlifting and, oh, you know, if you’re doing weights, it’s great because you got EPOC, right? What happens is your body is just continuing to burn some calories afterwards, right? And so there’s some people when they’re like, oh, is it cardio? Is it — they want to cite EPOC. So can you imagine how many extra calories you’re burning? It’s like it’s not much. It’s a propor— it’s a

[29:06] proportion of the total that you’re doing, but like let’s say you’re doing a half hour lift and it’s really intense, your EPOC is going to be maybe an extra like 45, 50 calories. Have that extra cookie.

Kathy: Yeah, there you go.

Jason: That’s basically what it is. You’re burning a couple extra cookies. So when you’re on social media and somebody’s talking about EPOC and that’s why, you know, this is all that you need to do — if that’s what they’re saying the difference is between you gaining and losing weight is like a

[29:36] couple cookies’ worth — yeah, you don’t listen to that person. That’s a thin margin.

Kathy: It is a very thin margin.

Jason: Yeah. And it’s a little bit of margarine. Do they make margarine anymore? I hope so. Like what was that one —

Kathy: People that can’t have dairy. We’ll see.

Jason: Parkay. Yes.

Kathy: Yeah, Parkay. And what was that other one? It was like Royal Caribbean. No, that’s —

Jason: That’s a cruise line.

Kathy: That’s my favorite cruise line. That’s a cruise line. Oh, jeez.

[30:07] Imperial.

Kathy: Oh, Imperial.

Jason: Imperial. Da da da da da. Imperial. Parkay.

Kathy: Parkay. Yeah. I don’t even know if they make that anymore. I think it was just like pure trans fat or something like that.

Jason: You could squeeze it out of a bottle?

Kathy: Oh my gosh. I’m squeezing it onto my toast.

Jason: Well, that was the thing with those things — it was nice because it was easy to spread on toast. Oh, goodness. We just built a time machine. We did. Margarine was so much better for

[30:38] you.

Kathy: Yeah. Well, it was heart healthy. It was — yes. Well, that was the other thing with the ’80s: we had aerobics and they told us to quit eating fat.

Jason: Yes. Yes. Those fat-free cookies.

Kathy: Fat-free. Well —

Jason: So bad.

Kathy: And it was such a con too, because the reason they told us to quit eating fat was literally because they thought that we were too stupid to understand that there are certain types of fats that aren’t good for you, right? And so it —

[31:09] yeah, they’re like, “Just get rid of all the fat.” Or — they had their version of influencers then too.

Jason: There were lobbyists. Yeah. And there are people who are like, “Well, if you eat fat, of course you’re going to put on fat. Duh.” Right? Just like if you eat chicken, you’re going to put on chicken.

Kathy:

Jason: You are what you eat.

Kathy: Stop eating tofu then. Yeah.

Jason: You’re turning into a big brick of soy.

[31:39] We need to have an intervention. Oh. How about — this is one of my favorite ones — you see it at the gym or on the treadmill: the fat burning zone.

Kathy: Oh, yes, the fat burning zone.

Jason: I’d love to be in the fat burning zone, you know? I’m in the fat burning zone right now.

Well, and you know, this is an interesting thing and it’s got some science behind it. But at the same time we have to be careful how we talk about it because we could hurt a lot of feelings. Yeah. Like, Orange Theory.

Kathy: Just thinking that, too.

[32:09] Yes. And my wife is —

Kathy: We love Orange Theory. Oh, yes, we love Orange Theory.

Jason: And my wife is an avid Orange Theorist. That’s what I call them. Yes. She goes there at 6:00 in the morning and she’s like, “Make sure to wake up and go to work.” And I’m like, “Are you off to do some Orange Theorizing with the other Orange Theorists?” What theory are we going to work on today? Why not Blue Theory?

Kathy: Yeah.

Jason: Yeah, so that’s this whole zone

[32:39] theory thing, which — it’s not really a theory, but the zones are basically based on where you are aerobically. Like how fast your heart’s beating, your heart rate. What has been seen is that you will kind of burn fat, or metabolize fat, or burn calories at a different rate, okay? And so this is a big thing to

[33:10] some people.

Kathy: It is. It’s also a partial understanding of how that physiology works. So, is there a fat burning zone? Technically, yes.

Jason: Yes. But then there’s also a big fat burning zone tradeoff.

Kathy: Mhm. Because the fat burning zone is working out at a level that is sub-aerobic.

Jason: Right. When I was in chiropractic school, I remember in my physiology class the teacher got everybody to listen

[33:41] because he’s like, “If you just walk everywhere, you’ll burn fat faster than if you go out and you’re doing sports or anything like that.” Which was really intriguing —

Kathy: I love that theory.

Jason: — to certain people in the class, right? And he wasn’t wrong, because when you’re working out at a sub-aerobic level your body will focus more on using fat as an energy source. But the tradeoff is that you’re working out at a sub-aerobic level, so you’re not working as hard.

[34:11] Right. And so the fat burning zone — it’s almost like EPOC, right? Yes, there is a physiological effect there. Is it significant enough to get you to your goal? That’s a great question. Right. So, the tradeoff is: do you have to stay in the fat burning zone longer? Do you have to do 2 hours — which some people may prefer

Kathy: Mhm.

Jason: — to do in that lower heart rate zone — do 2 hours, a 2-hour walk,

[34:41] yeah, versus, you know, a 30-minute HIIT exercise? Yeah. So. Well, and there are some people who should, honestly. Like, for example, this is really good for people who are insulin resistant.

Kathy: Mhm.

Jason: So if you’re insulin resistant — you have the pre-diabetes or the full-blown diabetes, right? Yeah, you got the sugar. So, this tends to be kind of a sweet spot for people who have some insulin

[35:11] resistance. See what I did there? Sweet spot.

Kathy: Yeah. That was — oh, killing them.

Jason: Anyway, there can be some benefits there. So it really depends upon who you are. You could be — if you’re diabetic, going for a walk: really good thing, right? Going for a nice slow bike ride: good thing. Going for a swim: good thing. But it’s not the only type of exercise that you should be doing. You should also go for a run and everything

[35:41] like that. But spending some time there physiologically, it’s good in terms of helping to fight some insulin resistance. And yeah, but it’s also just kind of a marketing thing, too. Right? It’s like, “Hey, here’s this elliptical. Try a little less hard and get some extra benefits.” Because people — you can burn fat doing cardiovascular exercise. You can

[36:12] do cardio. Jason: There’s no doubt about that. What about — let’s see, where’s my note? Oh. So, what about longevity? Have you read about the differences between all-cause mortality with cardio versus resistance training? Kathy: I haven’t read about it. Jason: Uh-huh. I have opinions. Would you like to read about it? Kathy: Let me read you — what are your opinions? That’s what I’m interested in.

[36:42] Kathy: Well, again, I’m 100% biased. I’m not even going to pretend like — Jason: I don’t want science. I want bias. Kathy: Okay. My bias is if you want longevity, you need to build strength. Jason: Mhm. Kathy: So that’s where I stand. Because if you want to get up and down off the toilet when you’re 90 — Jason: Yeah. Kathy: — you got to have stronger quads and glutes, right? Well, and for the people who are thinking I’m not going to live to 90 anyway, how about when you’re 70? Jason: Okay, 70.

[37:12] Kathy: And then, you know, for me strength training is queen because it not only builds muscle, but also builds bone. Jason: Mhm. Kathy: And the stronger we are — if we fall, when we fall, because we’re going to fall — Jason: Mhm. Kathy: — the more resilient we are, because we’re going to have stronger bones. We’re going to be able to get up off the ground because we have stronger muscles. So that’s my opinion. Jason: I think that’s a solid take. It’s a solid take and I think that it’s accurate, too. So, all-cause mortality decreases when

[37:43] you do cardiovascular exercise. And you remember all-cause mortality is heart disease, cancer, diabetes, school buses, earthquakes, you know, those kinds of things. And so people love to be like, “Oh, yeah, cardiovascular exercise — if you’re doing that, it’s going to decrease your risk of all-cause mortality.” Do we get the same effect from resistance training? The answer is yeah. Kathy: Jason: Yeah.

10 to 17% decrease in all-cause

[38:15] mortality if you’re strength training regularly. And so, imagine this. Now, and this is crazy, I know. What if you decide not to choose, but to do both? Kathy: No. Jason: Yes. Kathy: Bite your tongue. Jason: Yeah, so — Kathy: Mhm, bitten. So, what if you decide that you are going to do both cardio

[38:46] and you’re going to do resistance training? Jason: Wow. Yeah. You will live to 200 years old, I guarantee. Kathy: Guaranteed. Jason: That is a guarantee. It’ll double your lifespan. Kathy: Money back. Every dime that you have spent on the PTCH Podcast will be refunded to you if you don’t live to 200 after doing both of those every single day of your 200-year life. Jason: Yeah, and I think that that’s the thing — like, why are we even doing this episode? Kathy: Yeah. Doesn’t everybody know that you should be doing both? Both.

[39:17] No. People want to pick one. Jason: Yeah. They want to be told that one is better than the other. And I think that there’s definitely an age element to this, too. Because, do you remember when Robin came on? I know you remember Robin — she’s your friend. She’s my friend. But one of the things that she said that really stuck out to me, and I went and did some additional reading on, was this idea of having a window of time when you can develop speed. Kathy: Oh. Right? Like, I think the question was, are you born fast or —

[39:47] Jason: Okay. Yeah. As you pointed out, there is a window of time in your human development where you can increase that ratio of slow-twitch — which are your endurance, kind of cardio fibers — Kathy: Yeah. Jason: — and your fast-twitch, which are more of your strength and resistance fibers. And that is in adolescence. And so if you’re doing speed training and strength training and everything, then that’s going to impact the rest of your life. But you and I are at an age and stage

[40:19] where our workouts and our schedule of working out should look different than somebody who’s 20. Kathy: Mhm. Right? Somebody who’s 20 can — slash should — be out there getting it every day. Jason: Yeah. Every day, half hour, 45 minutes. Kathy: Live it up. Yep. Enjoy it. Jason: You get to be our age, you should do a little less. Because the big thing here isn’t necessarily even cardiovascular versus resistance. It’s the third piece, which

[40:49] is rest. Kathy: Yes. Jason: Yes. Yeah. So the rest is when the magic happens. Kathy: Yep. So you go and you lift weights — you’ve not built any muscle. When does the muscle building come? The rest day. Jason: When you’re resting. Yes. And so I think when you’re kind of balancing this and debating this — and there’s going to be plenty of gym bros and influencers that are going to be like, that guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about — well, I’ve got three science degrees.

[41:19] So if I don’t know what I’m talking about, it was incredibly expensive to get to the point where I absolutely knew nothing. Kathy: Mhm. Yeah, but you got to do what’s best for you at your age and stage. I am so happy to be at a point where it’s like, I do a half hour — Jason: Kathy: — three days a week and I’m resting and doing good things for my body the other days. Jason: Yeah. Kathy: That’s really pretty good. Jason: Mhm. So I try and do a little something every day.

[41:49] I don’t do cardio every day. But like, I’ll do the spin bike five, six days a week. Kathy: Yeah. Jason: And what I’ll do is on my rest days, I’m in zone two. That’s a rest day — you’re still moving. Sub-aerobic. I’m talking on the phone while I’m on the spin bike, right? Kathy: They don’t even know you’re on the bike. Jason: Yeah, it’s called active recovery. So it’s not that you shouldn’t work out every day or you couldn’t work out every day — it’s that you can

[42:20] have an active recovery day. Spend a day doing yoga or something like that. Kathy: Mhm. Jason: Spend a day not running 10 miles. Kathy: Yes. Those are the people — like, well, if I’m not going to run 10 miles, I’m going to swim 10 miles. Those are — — those are those people. Jason: Uh-huh. What if we settled this debate, or talked about it — diving into some science here? Kathy: Yeah. Jason: Okay. Kathy: Drop some science. Jason: I’m going to drop you some science here.

[42:50] So I saw this new large-scale study that just came out from the European Institute of Cardiometabolic Longevity. Kathy: Mhm. Jason: They followed over 18,000 adults for 12 years comparing strength training and cardiovascular exercise. So one of the findings was that processing speed — so the way your brain functioned —

[43:20] Kathy: Sped up. So your processing speed jumped.

Jason: Oh.

Kathy: Yes. But doing cardio — the people that did cardio versus the people that did strength training. So participants were completing cognitive tasks much quicker than the people doing strength training. Okay.

Jason: Talk me into it. Yeah. Another thing they found was that brain size actually increased. One of the most surprising findings was a measurable increase in overall brain volume in high-cardio

[43:50] groups.

Kathy: Mm-hmm. Not huge, but enough.

Jason: They described it as clinically meaningful. Size matters. Yeah. Size matters. Okay, this is where it gets a little bit crazy.

Kathy: Okay.

Jason: Participants in the highest cardio group had significantly better outcomes when learning new languages. They couldn’t fully explain it. The aerobic training seemed to prime the brain for language. Then they even tested higher-level reasoning with complex math and logic,

[44:21] and the higher cardio group outperformed others. Yeah. Okay. And people even had better spatial awareness and navigation, almost like an upgrade in your GPS. Nice. Yeah. And also — today’s April Fools. And that

Kathy:

Jason: — study does not exist.

Kathy: I thought you were going to get me, and I got you.

Jason: DAMN IT, YOU JUST WASTED ALL THAT TIME.

Kathy:

[44:54] OH MY GOSH. I’M SITTING there and I’m thinking and I was like, wow, this doesn’t agree with all the — like, is this new? I thought you were going to get me. You know what’s great is I’m going to look back at this and I’m going to look at my face while you’re reading this. And I’m going to feel good about the fact that there’s sometimes where I’m like, what?

Jason: Yes, it was good because you were uncharacteris— uncharacteristically quiet, ‘cause you’re like, she’s crazy right now. But I’m not going to call her out in

[45:25] front of the camera.

Kathy: Yeah, it’s like, wow, people who do cardio get bigger brains. Well, I guess if it says it in PubMed — holy crap, that was a good one. I like it. I was scared coming today, ‘cause I was —

Jason: Really?

Kathy: — like, Jason’s going to get me.

Jason: That is quite a lie. Yes.

Kathy: I am on guard.

Jason: Oh, you nailed it. Okay, I got to tell you — I got to tell you — no. So please do not take those. What’s the timestamp on that? Jump back to that —

[45:56] Okay, I got to tell you about the April Fools’ tricks that were played on me today.

Kathy: Oh, okay. Yeah.

Jason: You were targeted today, huh?

Kathy: I was. I was. You know, we have our Beaver Dam. Okay. And so I’m in there and I’m working on somebody. I look up and there is this sign by the window and it says “Go Ducks” and it’s got like the freaking duck.

Jason: At your clinic.

Kathy: Yeah, in my Beaver Room.

Jason: No.

Kathy: Yes. And so I was like, what is

[46:27] this? I was like, ah, right, April Fools. So I go and I leave the room to go up to the front to talk to Mary Anne to let her know that this is her last day, and as I’m leaving, I see on the door another sign that says “Go —”

Jason:

Kathy: — ah, jeez. And then like they’re just hidden in little places, these little “Go Ducks,” right? And then later on, I go into that same room and there is like a huge blowup picture of my freaking face. And so it’s like

[46:58] what I’m saying is we have job openings. I had to — I had to get rid of them all. No, I actually texted Mandy and I was like, hey, I got bad news. Like, can you come in this morning? ‘Cause I had to fire Mary Anne. And she’s like, haha, April Fools. And I sent the pictures and I was like, no.

Jason:

Kathy: And she’s like, oh my gosh. She’s getting a raise.

Jason: Yeah. So yeah.

Kathy: Does Mary Anne listen?

Jason: Oh yeah, she does. Yeah, she is — she’s

[47:29] out there. And I’ll tell you, she just does cardio. She — yeah. She’s a cardio monster.

Kathy: Monster.

Jason: She is — cardioing — yeah, cardioing it — cardio. She’s doing cardio right now listening to this.

Kathy: No doubt. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Oh. All right, back to the show.

Jason: Insane. That was so good. Well, I think that there’s kind of one more thing for us to really cover and then we’re going to get to our game. But you’ve already really alluded to this, and

[48:00] the most important thing with this — people, I’m talking to all of you out there — is do not get caught up in how important is it that I’m doing this or how important is it that I’m doing that. Mm-hmm. Think about the whole of human history, and the operating system that we come with does not require that we spend X amount of time on a treadmill, in a pool, on a bike — things that didn’t exist when humans were created.

[48:30] Kathy: Good point.

Jason: There’s no requirement that you do those things. Those things are tools, and they are tools so that you can become what you want to become. And so you hit the nail on the head — not with that stupid study that doesn’t exist — but you hit the nail on the head when you were talking about in 20 years and 30 years and 40 years, what do you want to be? What do you want to be doing? What’s important for you to be able to do? And that is going to dictate what you need to do to train.

[49:00] Kathy: That’s a really good point. Yeah. And — yeah, it’s a good point. It was your point.

Jason:

Kathy: But you’re saying it again.

Jason: Yeah. So —

Kathy: And I’m saying it louder.

Jason: Yeah, so work backwards, right? Figure out what do I want to be able to do. Like, do you want to go climb a mountain? You got to work backwards. So if you want to be that 80-year-old that’s standing on top of a mountain — mm-hmm — you got to work backwards and figure out what does it take to climb a mountain. What muscle groups do I need? How healthy does my heart need to

[49:32] be? If you want to just be sitting there playing video games on the couch — guess what? You made it. You did it.

Kathy: You did it.

Jason: Do it now.

Kathy: Do it, dog.

Jason: Did it. Yes. Yeah, so you’re going to climb that hill and you’re going to have a coronary.

Kathy: Let’s hope not.

Jason: Have lost a listener.

Kathy: But yeah. So yeah. So that’s the important thing

[50:03] is I think people come to you all the time that are like, “Hey, I want to get in shape.” And your next question is always, for what?

Kathy: Yeah. What do you want to do? Mhm.

Jason: Yeah. And people can — I don’t know what I’m going to say. People can do anything they put their minds to.

Kathy: Yeah, especially in this day and age.

Jason:

Kathy: Apparently.

Jason: Probably not. Like, you want to buy a tank of gas? No, you can’t.

Kathy:

Jason: Sorry. You want to go to college? You can, but you can’t pay for it.

[50:33] dollars. You want to live indoors? Probably not. Well, and there’s a condition that’s coming for all of us. What is that condition, Kathy? Death. Death. Well, shortly before death.

Kathy: Okay, on it. Sarcopenia.

Jason: Sarcopenia. It’s coming.

Kathy: Break it down for us, sarcopenia. Sarcopenia.

Jason: It’s muscle loss. Muscle loss.

[51:04] Yeah, we peak in our 30s. Yeah. It’s a sad thought. I know I peaked.

Kathy:

Jason: Yeah, 1 to 2% of your muscle mass per year, is that what it is? Yeah. So you got to — you got to rage against the machine. Yeah. Mhm. You could be a sponsor, too, Rage Against the Machine.

Kathy: Yes. So. All right. Well, I think it is game time and we’re doing something different for games.

Jason: I’m excited about this.

Kathy: You don’t know what the game is.

Jason: I don’t. That’s why I’m scared. I also

[51:34] don’t know what — oh. Yes.

Kathy: Okay. We have a special guest host for our games today. Take it away, Raul. Okay. Here we go, Raul.

Raul: Hi, everyone.

Kathy: Okay. So I’m going to take off my headphones so that I can actually hear without the delay. Yeah, okay. You don’t want the echo.

Jason: Wait, you have a dump button? So we can swear all we want and Raul can just dump it?

Kathy:

Jason: The game has changed.

Raul: Here we go. Can you go back and dump that

[52:05] entire study yesterday?

Kathy:

Raul: I’ll make a note. All right. Okay. So the game today is called Breathless or Benchless. So the idea is giving different scenarios — kind of scenarios where people in everyday situations are pushed to their physical limits where they feel like they probably shouldn’t have been.

Jason: Yes, definitely a podcast. Uh-huh. Okay. So,

[52:36] here’s scenario one. And then we have to tell you whether that person is breathless or benchless?

Raul: Yes. Okay. Okay. All right. So scenario one is called the Stadium Climb. So, I was walking up to my nosebleed seats at the Beavers game and had to fake three {quote} {unquote} photo stops just to catch my breath

Jason:

Raul: before I passed out next to the marching bands. No. I think that’s breathless.

[53:08] Definitely breathless. I’ll go with breathless.

Jason: somebody and like, how would you train for that?

Kathy:

Jason: How would I train for walking up and down the steps?

Kathy: Yeah. Walk up and down the steps.

Jason: Bingo. I love it. Yeah, you get out there.

Kathy: though. Yeah. Start with a few steps. Little exercise here and there.

Jason: Exercise snack. Okay, good. I think we nailed that one. All right, what’s next?

Raul: Oh, yeah, definitely nailed it. Scenario two, this one’s called the Couch Catastrophe. So, Couch Catastrophe — can we just — yeah.

[53:39] Couch Catastrophe. I like it. Okay. All right. I tried to impress my spouse by moving a sectional couch solo. Lifted, twisted, and my lower back — oh, my lower back filed a formal complaint.

Jason: Yes. I’m going to say chiropractic.

Kathy: Yes.

Jason:

Raul: Benchless.

Jason: That’s benchless, yeah. Bro, you got to get those reps in. Yes. You don’t just go pick up a couch. Yes, lift with your

[54:09] legs.

Kathy: Yes.

Jason: Or just learn how to deadlift.

Kathy: Or why isn’t your wife helping you out?

Jason: She’s been to Wonder Woman Island. Good point.

Raul: All right. Okay. Scenario three is the Grocery Gauntlet. Ooh. I insisted on taking all the grocery bags in one trip from the car. And I made it halfway up the driveway before I had to set everything down like

[54:39] I was doing a farmer’s carry EMOM. Which is Every Minute on the Minute. I’ll let the experts — that’s a mix right there. I think it is. It’s kind of — it’s a bit of both, right? If you had a little better endurance, you could have made it to the door. You could have. And if you were stronger, if you weren’t such a wuss, you wouldn’t have to put those bags down. That’s right. This person needs to hit the CrossFit.

Jason: They — it’s time to hit. It is.

[55:11] I see what you did there. I mean, that’s essentially what it is — if you want to train for something like this, you want to be doing HIIT, right? High-intensity interval training, that’s what it is.

Kathy: Yeah. Got it. Cuz that’s what carrying groceries is. Shopping is HIIT. Shopping?

Jason: Yes. Yes, it’s a workout. All right. All righty. So we got scenario four here, which is called the Pickup Basketball Gas Out. Oh, jeez.

Kathy:

[55:41] I joined a pickup hoops game, hit one fast break, and immediately subbed myself out pretending I tweaked a hamstring instead of admitting I was gassed.

Jason: Ah, okay. Well, both are very likely.

Kathy:

Jason: How hard was that acting?

Kathy:

Jason: Sounds like you were breathless.

Kathy: That — I think that — that’s probably breathless, but you started that one and I could feel my Achilles tendon

[56:11] snapping. I know. I was thinking like — ouch. All right. There we go.

Jason:

Raul: Scenario number five is called the Ammo Box Embarrassment. Yes, I like this. I enjoy shooting. At the range, I had to ask the kid behind the counter to carry my ammo box to the lane because my forearms tapped out after five steps.

Jason: This will never be me. Yes. You’ll be able to carry your own

[56:42] ammo? Always. Always. If I can’t carry my own ammo, I deserve whatever comes next.

Kathy: Yeah, that is benchless, sir. That is benchless.

Jason: without a bench. Yes. That young man should have just finished me off there.

Kathy:

Raul: Okay. So, 100% so far.

Kathy: Yeah, you’re killing it. Scenario six is called the Flight of Shame.

[57:13] I tried to lift my carry-on into the overhead bin, felt my shoulder glitch, and then decided just to check the bag instead. Yeah. This is definitely benchless. Definitely benchless. What a coward. Yeah. Thank you. That was — that was quite wonderful. Makes me want to go hit a bench. Yep. All right. So, Kathy, takeaways. Takeaways. I still don’t know which one I should do, cardio or strength. You should do

[57:43] them all. Both of them, both? Well, you have a lot of days, you know? You can dabble, dabble. I think my take-home is that I need to take away your artificial intelligence access so that you can’t make up fake studies anymore. No, that was wonderful. I enjoyed talking about this with you and hopefully it was helpful to people. One. Just — I think move. Just move. Move and you’ll figure it out. And find

[58:13] something that you enjoy, do that. I like the reverse-engineer idea. Who do you want to be when you’re 80? Mhm. Yeah. Right? Yeah. I want to be Chuck Norris. Rest in peace. RIP. Makes you wonder, did the rest of us die and Chuck’s still alive? I think so. Could be. It was just his world, we were living in it, so. Basically. This is heaven. This is heaven. Yes. Thanks, Chuck. Oh, and there’s one more thing. That’s right. There’s no I in PTCH.

[58:44]